19 July 2012

Chifley fatal

19 July 2012 | By johnboy

ACT Policing are investigating a collision in Chifley early this morning, Thursday 19 July.

About 12.50am, police were called to Eggleston Crescent where a white Holden Commodore had collided with a tree.

The vehicle was carrying a driver and three passengers.

Two of the passengers received minor injuries and are being treated at The Canberra Hospital. The other passenger died at the scene.

The driver of the vehicle is currently assisting police with their enquiries.

ACT Policing Crash Investigations and Reconstruction Team are investigating the scene.

This is the sixth person to have died on ACT roads this year.

Anyone who may have witnessed the collision is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000, or via the Crime Stoppers website on www.act.crimestoppers.com.au. Information can be provided anonymously.

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Pillz10:07 am 30 Jul 12

farnarkler said :

Yep these type of accidents will continue to happen. It’s such a pity when fate decides that the driver survives, stopping much needed cleansing of the gene pool.

Harsh comment, but I understand what you mean. Unfortunately you may not know that the four people travelling in the car were and are all excellent sportsmen in their respective sports and were at a physical peak in their fitness. If Australia ever turns into a post nuclear attack survival of the fittest, these guys would mop the floor with you.

farnarkler4:32 pm 22 Jul 12

Yep these type of accidents will continue to happen. It’s such a pity when fate decides that the driver survives, stopping much needed cleansing of the gene pool.

LSWCHP12:43 pm 22 Jul 12

scorpio63 said :

LSWCHP says: The only real solution is to not allow people (particularly males) to drive until their brains reach maturity at around age 25. That’s not going to happen, so I suspect that these tragedies will always be with us.

WOOHOO LSWCHP finally you have made a valid factual point LOL wonders never cease

Glad to be of service.

KB19717:47 am 22 Jul 12

Jethro, I guess what I was trying to say was people think they are safe in a car especially at low speeds but you are not. There are so many mittigating circumstances its not funny.

If you look at the ADR’s for occupant protection, all the impact speeds are low. ANCAP has the fastest speed in their own tests & that is 65km/h for a front on test. Motor vehicles are pretty good at protecting you from the front with crumple zones & such but there is no such luxury from the side until recently with airbags.

I imagine the boys in question would all be still alive if they hit that tree with the front of the car, even though it is an old VL but that is hindsight.

KB19717:38 am 22 Jul 12

Jethro said :

KB1971 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Sad as all of this is, losing control of a car in a 50km/h zone, whether being chased or not, with enough speed to kill an occupant just smells fishy to me. I’d love to hear the results of the police crash investigation as to the “actual” speed.

You obviously have no idea how easy it is to die in a motor vehicle then.

Speeds as little as 40km/h can produce enough G force for a brain to disintergrate in an impact.

I think it’s more that driving at 50 is unlikely to cause you to lose control of the vehicle in the first place.

True, but say a driver mounted the gutter at 50 without being in a slide or braking (call it lack of attention, no speeding involved), the car then began to slide in the dirt or grass then hits a tree immediately adjascent to the road then the potential is there.

I am not speculating that is what happened here, I am keeping out of that.

When I worked at Rego I was inviolved with a couple of Police investigations where there was a fatal. One guy was killed pulling out of a street in a small car & was hit buy a large car built in the early 70’s. The force of the poor guys head hitting the pillar was enough to kill him.

No different from a king hit then the head hitting the ground. The threshold for head injury is very low.

HenryBG11:36 pm 21 Jul 12

Tetranitrate said :

So apparently the 3 of them were stealing hubcaps from the cars at one of the car-yards in Phillip.
A security guard happened upon them, they took off and he started driving after them.
Supposedly he gave up the ‘pursuit’ once they sped up heading into Chifley, but drove around a bit in the suburb and flashed his lights at them upon seeing them a little later – they then sped off again and subsequently crashed.
Whether or not the car saw the crash is an open and very important question, since if they did drive past and not render aid, that would be pretty serious.

If the ABC radio presenters had even a hint of journalistic integrity, they’d have asked the important questions:

Why are *YOUR* live-at-home children roaming our town at night causing trouble?
What are you going to do to ensure people can sleep at night without fear of the Midnight Market opening up in their driveway? or hoons burning rubber outside their bedroom windows?

I think these pricks have a hide ringing up the radio stations to have whinge when *they* are the ones who need to be asked, please explain?! about the progeny you have produced.

vg11:26 pm 21 Jul 12

troll-sniffer said :

bigred said :

Well there is three extra third party claims from one moment in time. No wonder premiums are up.

Why do you need the qualifier ‘in time’? Is there any other sort of moment? Just as bad as the redundancy in ‘at this point in time’ etc. Then again this is a city full of public servants so no surprises that verbiose garbage creeps into the language.

Every city is full of public servants.

Name me one that isn’t

shauno10:29 pm 21 Jul 12

farnarkler said :

I wonder how a brand new WRX or EVO with all their techno wizardry would’ve dealt with the same situation. The VL’s driving dynamics are archaic compared.

Having owned WRX and STI’s including a 500hp modified version with front a rear LSD and Motec controlled centre diff I can tell you all the traction that these cars give you can be of no help at all in fact more dangerous for a young driver that doesn’t know how to drive these cars on the limit. Because of the amount a grip if you do loose it and get sideways you have to be very quick to catch it because it breaks away at a very high adhesion level. They are actually much more controllable sideways in the wet under power but they also under steer big time. For the less experienced driver they give a false sense of security and ability.

As for the VL commodores they are also a trap for the young experienced they frequently have well worn suspension and can easily get a bit sideways at speed around bends if there are bumps in the road and the driver panics a bit and over corrects ive seen it happen. The young drivers frequently are to much off and on the throttle and have to much aggressive steering input. They are far better off learning on a front wheel drive car and preferably quiet a bit of time on dirt if they really want to learn how to drive safely.

Sandman9:09 pm 21 Jul 12

KB1971 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Sad as all of this is, losing control of a car in a 50km/h zone, whether being chased or not, with enough speed to kill an occupant just smells fishy to me. I’d love to hear the results of the police crash investigation as to the “actual” speed.

You obviously have no idea how easy it is to die in a motor vehicle then.

Speeds as little as 40km/h can produce enough G force for a brain to disintergrate in an impact.

Yes, but if the speed limit is being observed then by the time you hit something permanent that’s not even on the road you should have washed off most of that speed, even in an archaic old VL.

Tetranitrate9:00 pm 21 Jul 12

So apparently the 3 of them were stealing hubcaps from the cars at one of the car-yards in Phillip.
A security guard happened upon them, they took off and he started driving after them.
Supposedly he gave up the ‘pursuit’ once they sped up heading into Chifley, but drove around a bit in the suburb and flashed his lights at them upon seeing them a little later – they then sped off again and subsequently crashed.
Whether or not the car saw the crash is an open and very important question, since if they did drive past and not render aid, that would be pretty serious.

00davist3:46 pm 20 Jul 12

…..I know a lot of impatient drivers won’t be happy if there is a slow P plater in front of them but this is part of the broader cultural problem….

troll-sniffer said :

…Sorry, but your suggestion is uneducated and ill-informed, and continues the mantra that lower speeds are always safer, something that has been disproven the world over.

Thanks Pot – I don’t agree but your comments have been noted. Also, I can’t help but feel that your tone is a good example of your attitude towards others on the road.

00davist said :

…..I personally would suggest Drink Driving is the greater evil, but it’s not necissarily an easy call.

You may well be right but, for example, I can’t help questioning whether this accident would have happened if the number of passengers had been limited.

00davist said :

On the surface, it makes sence, but the lower speed limit is one of the least effective of the NSW P Plater laws for 2 reasons (In my opinion)

1) It focuses really on highways, and that’s not necisarily the focus needed.

2) on the whole, a fair majority of P Plater fatalities come down not so much to accidents born of inexpreience, but choices born of stupidity.

Speed is a huge issue with young males in particular (To generalise) but for the most part, lowering the limit does not solve the problem, they are already completley ignoring the limit, making it 90 has no effect on that ignorance, even if it does up the penalty.

They need to be getting away with it less.

I agree that lowering the speed limit for P platers (on all roads – not just highways) would not be an ideal outcome. However, I do feel that most if not all P platers don’t have the skills and experience to know when to drive at the normal limit and when it is appropriate to drive at slower speeds. Lower limits would give them “permission” not to feel compelled to keep up with the speed of other traffic (including the many other drivers who speed) and any speeding would become obvious earlier. For those drivers that speed no matter what, penalties would be stiffer (because the margin over their lower speed limit would be higher) which might create an incentive to drive at slightly lower illegal speeds or at least increase the likelihood that they lose their license sooner.

In this case, even though I have difficulty understanding how someone could do that kind of damage at 50km/h it would be even harder to justify at 40km/h.

1) as I said, it’s not an easy call, and while I was reffering to Drink Driving as worse in general, It indeed was not the culprit in this case, and it’s possible with less passengers this may not have happned, or that it would have been much less a tradedy if less people were there to be hurt (infact, if a 2 person limit applied, there is a reasonable assumption no one would have been in the seat that took the force)

2)It’s an interesting point you make about taking the pressure off P platers to ‘Keep Up” and one that I had not considered. particuarly when you first start out, it can seem quite chaotic at times, and having the limit would certainly help remove pressure to go faster than your comfortable with.

This would also be further assisted by enforcemtn of “no Tailgaiting”

I’m still not sure I’m a fan of lower limits for P platers, but this certainly is food for thought.

I guess at the end of the day alot of it comes down to using intellegence, in a lot of cases, death is the result of not obaying road laws, as opposed to inexperience, not to say inexperience does not contribute, it certainly does and that needs to be addressed, it’s just to easy to get away with making a concious choice to be a roadtard.

I mean let’s face it, it’s not a lack of experience that should tell somone a phone in one hand and a pie in the other is being a roadtard!

00davist10:19 am 20 Jul 12

My sympathies to the family of the deceased. It’s probably a bit raw for many but I also feel sad for the other passengers and especially the driver who are going to have to live with this for the rest of their lives – even if some or all of them are found not to be directly responsible.

There needs to be a cultural change in the attitude of all drivers on the road for which most, if not all of us, are at fault. These young drivers at least in part follow our lead and we need to set a better example for all future drivers. Drive within limits, be courteous to other road users, take a breath instead of immediately criticising other drivers (even young kids notice these things as passengers) and, most of all, set off earlier and focus less on ETAs.

Being able to drive is a privilege not a right, road limits are the maximum (not a guide), anything can go wrong at any time and the only reason most of us haven’t been in an accident YET where someone was killed or seriously injured is luck (possibly assisted by the driving skills and experience of ourselves or someone else).

I realise that traffic enforcement is lacking because of limited resources but tighter road rules would at least help improve the on road culture. For provisional drivers:

1/ licenses should be limited for power to weight (like motorcycle licenses). Special exemptions could be given for vehicles with higher power to weight ratios used solely for work (eg for trades).
2/ licenses should be suspended at lower limits for points accrual (eg 6 points) – we already have lower DUI limits.
3/ lower speed limits should apply (eg 10km/h off the normal limit for anything over 30km/h) at least for red P platers. They have only limited on road experience, limited or no experience dealing with emergency or unforseen events, no experience driving on their own and no experience driving while rejecting peer pressure. (And yes I know a lot of impatient drivers won’t be happy if there is a slow P plater in front of them but this is part of the broader cultural problem).
4/ provisional licenses should be increased to the greater of five years or age 25 (the brains of males don’t fully develop until age 25);
5/ only one passenger under age 25 should be allowed unless there is a fully licensed driver in the vehicle (although there are good arguments against this one as it would conflict with the need for designated drivers).

Your fith point is indeed a hard one, I remember when a very similar law was brought in in NSW just before I got my licence.

It was brought in not long after yet another entire group of mates was wiped out (Kangaroo Valley accident) in the hope that firstly, less mates in the car would remove some of the temptation to act a fool, and secondly, when the worst did happen, it limited the loss of life, simply by having less people there.

But yes, on the other hand it did cause problems for the designated driver sheme, as it limited each dd to only taking home 1 mate.

It wasnot a huge issue for me, my best mate and I tended to be at any social gathering togehter, so we just took it in turns driving each other home, plus we didn’t drink all that often.

But I know of a few guys at those gatherings, and girls, who drove home drunk becase they hadn’t come up with an alternitave.

Not to advocate their choices, I thought it stuip then, and I think it stupid now, but it’s agree’d that there will always be idiots, and with that one it’s hard to come up with a solution that dosn’t have them doing one or the other!

I personally would suggest Drink Driving is the greater evil, but it’s not necissarily an easy call.

willo1:11 am 20 Jul 12

00davist said :

Just a little more food for thought for the keyboard warriors who feel so safe behind screen names that they will happily disregard the pain that someone is feeling right now.

When I was two, my father was killed in a car accident, after work one day, he caught a lift home with a mate, they stopped at the pub, and had too much, then they drove to another, the driver went in for a few more, and my dad put the seat back, took his belt off, and had a nap in the car park.

Well, naturally the driver came back, and through his own drink, didn’t realise my dad was asleep with no seat belt, the driver fell asleep on parramatta road, and hit a pole, he was ok, but Dad hit the dash.

I hold no illusions to what happened that night, both of them were idiots, it was 1990, so not so far back that they could hide from the truth of drink driving, and Dad was a smart man, he knew better than to be in that car, but he chose to be there, chose to be drunk, and his stupid, f*cked up choices were why he never came home.

There’s no way to justify his actions, he made his choices, and wore the consequences, however, he was a good man, a loving father, and a caring husband, and no matter how much stupidity he showed that night, he did not deserve death, nor did my mum, pregnant at the time, deserve that knock on the door, I deserved to grow up with a father, and my little brother deserved to meet his.

He chose his actions, but that does not negate the life lost, and it in no way softens the pain left behind, at the end of the day, it’s a death as any death is, a man was lost who had so much to offer, and a family was left in tatters.

It’s been 22 years now, and the hurt is still there, you live with it, you move on, but it’s always a loss that walks with you.

No matter how much stupidity went into this accident (and that has not been determined yet) this boy is dead, and that is a tragedy, we all make stupid decisions at some point in our lives, and there’s plenty of us who are lucky to still be breathing.

So rather than making stupid remarks from the safety of your keyboard, how about you stop, and think for a moment of the things you’ve done that could have, with a little worse luck, killed you, and just be thankful for the fact that they didn’t.

A young man is dead, his parents just lost a son, his friends and family will be suffering immensely now, what right do you have to add to that?

If you really are fed up with the results of hooning, then first make damn sure your driving bloody well, then get of your a*se, and do something about it, you can volunteer for education courses at schools, or speak at programs for people who have been caught speeding, my mum has done this for years.

It’s easy to overlook the pain that this has left, it’s easy to mouth off like a fool, it takes courage to show compassion, and it takes allot more than that to actually quit just winging and do something about it.

the driver killed his mate……….sleep well pal……..

00davist10:44 pm 19 Jul 12

Just a little more food for thought for the keyboard warriors who feel so safe behind screen names that they will happily disregard the pain that someone is feeling right now.

When I was two, my father was killed in a car accident, after work one day, he caught a lift home with a mate, they stopped at the pub, and had too much, then they drove to another, the driver went in for a few more, and my dad put the seat back, took his belt off, and had a nap in the car park.

Well, naturally the driver came back, and through his own drink, didn’t realise my dad was asleep with no seat belt, the driver fell asleep on parramatta road, and hit a pole, he was ok, but Dad hit the dash.

I hold no illusions to what happened that night, both of them were idiots, it was 1990, so not so far back that they could hide from the truth of drink driving, and Dad was a smart man, he knew better than to be in that car, but he chose to be there, chose to be drunk, and his stupid, f*cked up choices were why he never came home.

There’s no way to justify his actions, he made his choices, and wore the consequences, however, he was a good man, a loving father, and a caring husband, and no matter how much stupidity he showed that night, he did not deserve death, nor did my mum, pregnant at the time, deserve that knock on the door, I deserved to grow up with a father, and my little brother deserved to meet his.

He chose his actions, but that does not negate the life lost, and it in no way softens the pain left behind, at the end of the day, it’s a death as any death is, a man was lost who had so much to offer, and a family was left in tatters.

It’s been 22 years now, and the hurt is still there, you live with it, you move on, but it’s always a loss that walks with you.

No matter how much stupidity went into this accident (and that has not been determined yet) this boy is dead, and that is a tragedy, we all make stupid decisions at some point in our lives, and there’s plenty of us who are lucky to still be breathing.

So rather than making stupid remarks from the safety of your keyboard, how about you stop, and think for a moment of the things you’ve done that could have, with a little worse luck, killed you, and just be thankful for the fact that they didn’t.

A young man is dead, his parents just lost a son, his friends and family will be suffering immensely now, what right do you have to add to that?

If you really are fed up with the results of hooning, then first make damn sure your driving bloody well, then get of your a*se, and do something about it, you can volunteer for education courses at schools, or speak at programs for people who have been caught speeding, my mum has done this for years.

It’s easy to overlook the pain that this has left, it’s easy to mouth off like a fool, it takes courage to show compassion, and it takes allot more than that to actually quit just winging and do something about it.

dungfungus3:22 pm 19 Jul 12

00davist said :

Solitude said :

What a waste of a perfectly good white commodore. The tree will take years to fully recover too.

Incredibly insensitive comment.
At the end of the day a life has been lost. Regardless of the circumstances, this is a complete tragedy.
A mother and father have lost their son. Relatives have lost a dear family member. Young boys have lost a great mate.
Don’t joke about it.

This is something that is overlooked too often, yes, it’s another white commodore hitting a tree, yes, it was loaded with young guys, with a P Plate driver, and yes, it happened late at night, however, that does not justify insensitive comments.

It’s not hard to make guesses as to what happened, and the circumstances seem to mirror recipes we all know lead to crashes, but the police had to wait to be able to assess the scene and determine what happened, so I can’t see how anyone at home can determine it so decisively from a photo on their screen.

A young man is dead, and that leaves alot of pain, regardless of how the car was being driven, on top of that, even if you think the driving style lessens the loss, I can’t see how you can apply that to passengers, he may not have been comfortable himself if the car was going to fast.

On top of that, how many people here did stupid things in their youth, drove to fast, got in a fight, or blew up a letter box, while I’m sure not everyone will be putting their hand up, I strongly doubt no one here can, did this kid deserve to die, even if stupidity was involved?

I’m not trying to justify hooning, if that was indeed the case, but if you want the death penalty, move to the US, and if you want it for driving offences, perhaps you should get yourself an island.

It’s not like we don’t get fed up and sometimes tell people that hoons should all go into tree’s and take themselves out before killing others, but an exasperated expression when we see a speeding car should not translate into insensitive commentary where someone has lost a child.

For anyone who knew this kid, you have my heartfelt sympathies, and to our resident trolls (MrGillespie, Henry BG, etc…) really think about it before you jump in here.

Lots of young people grieving at the scene this afternoon. Unfortunately, it will happen again and again and again……

00davist2:53 pm 19 Jul 12

Solitude said :

What a waste of a perfectly good white commodore. The tree will take years to fully recover too.

Incredibly insensitive comment.
At the end of the day a life has been lost. Regardless of the circumstances, this is a complete tragedy.
A mother and father have lost their son. Relatives have lost a dear family member. Young boys have lost a great mate.
Don’t joke about it.

This is something that is overlooked too often, yes, it’s another white commodore hitting a tree, yes, it was loaded with young guys, with a P Plate driver, and yes, it happened late at night, however, that does not justify insensitive comments.

It’s not hard to make guesses as to what happened, and the circumstances seem to mirror recipes we all know lead to crashes, but the police had to wait to be able to assess the scene and determine what happened, so I can’t see how anyone at home can determine it so decisively from a photo on their screen.

A young man is dead, and that leaves alot of pain, regardless of how the car was being driven, on top of that, even if you think the driving style lessens the loss, I can’t see how you can apply that to passengers, he may not have been comfortable himself if the car was going to fast.

On top of that, how many people here did stupid things in their youth, drove to fast, got in a fight, or blew up a letter box, while I’m sure not everyone will be putting their hand up, I strongly doubt no one here can, did this kid deserve to die, even if stupidity was involved?

I’m not trying to justify hooning, if that was indeed the case, but if you want the death penalty, move to the US, and if you want it for driving offences, perhaps you should get yourself an island.

It’s not like we don’t get fed up and sometimes tell people that hoons should all go into tree’s and take themselves out before killing others, but an exasperated expression when we see a speeding car should not translate into insensitive commentary where someone has lost a child.

For anyone who knew this kid, you have my heartfelt sympathies, and to our resident trolls (MrGillespie, Henry BG, etc…) really think about it before you jump in here.