25 March 2011

Downer murder produces first murder conviction in Canberra since 1998

25 March 2011 | johnboy

No case has created as much heated discussion on this site as the Downer murders of 2008 where Struan Bolas and Julie Franco were killed and their house set on fire in Downer.

In fact the families of the victims are largely responsible for this site bringing in pre-emptive comment moderation.

The Canberra Times reports that Scott Alexander McDougall has this morning been found guilty of both the murders by Justice Malcolm Gray, the first murder conviction in the ACT since 1998.

So if you kill two people, set fire to the house, sit in your car covered in blood until the police find you, and admit the killings, you can, in fact, be found guilty of murder in Canberra.

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Mr Gillespie10:35 am 30 Jul 11

At the court, I waved to him Goodbye, as he was led away in handcuffs, never to ever see daylight or taste freedom again.

johnboy10:31 am 30 Jul 11

Where and when did you say that Mr G?

Mr Gillespie10:25 am 30 Jul 11

EvanJames #43

Huh? Life means life.

“In respect of the murder of Struan Bolas committed on 10 September 2008, I sentence you to imprisonment for life.

In respect of the murder of Julie Tattersall committed on 10 September 2008, I sentence you to imprisonment for life.”

No parole period has been set.

Life means life.

As I said to McDougall, BYE!!

EvanJames10:20 am 30 Jul 11

15 years. How odd. I thought that murder, with intent, meant life?

cleo4:43 am 30 Jul 11

Ian # 7

Looks like I was right, the monster got double life, and 5 years for arson, about the ten years when monster can apply for parole, that’s just a charade with the courts, that will never happen to a convicted murderer with double life, especially what the psychiatrist had to say about monster.
I expect monster to try and commit suicide, monster won’t succeed as he is a coward.

cleo10:44 pm 30 Mar 11

Ian # 7

Yes we shall wait for the sentencing, found guilty of double murder, pleaded guilty to arson, out on parole for attempted murder and grievous bodily harm, did three years for that.
I think the previous judge missed something there. He stabbed another friend over thirty times, and has done at least 5 break and enters.

Oh I think he will be going away for a long long time, I can see back to back life in prison, without parole.

Not5:30 pm 29 Mar 11

Mysteryman said :

Not said :

I know what exactly what it going on. Too many sheltered years of living in an safe, clean and wealthy city has you wrapped up bubble wrap. Aside from the whole opinion of the courts and the way they operate, the number of murders in Canberra wont change. They haven’t in the last 50 years. There would still be rumors and judgments flying around even if it appeared all was well in the courts. Most of us tend to forget that there is nothing you are able to control in the world but for how much you appreciate your own life. Everything else is beyond us. So while it might seem like it serves as deterrent for other would be killers, convicting murders and jailing them for eternity does nothing to make for a safer world. History clearly shows us this. What is the real issue here for you paranoid people? Vengeance is not logical explainable here as I am sure you would not let anyone else do your bidding for you? Soft or not soft on crime would be irrelevant because we would all be vigilantes and making our own minds up. But since we have all chosen to have a representative do that we will stay indoors for now.

And it would be He, standing over there in distance waiving a copy of the Canberra Times at you and not caring.

There are a number of problems with what you’re saying. I don’t have the time to expound on all of them, but I will say this:

Firstly, regardless of your views on publications like the Canberra Times, the quotes contained in the articles are what I was referring to, not the articles themselves. Unless you’re suggesting that the quotes were taken entirely out of context and that the parties were completely misrepresented, then you’re argument falls flat.

Secondly, you can’t seem to grasp the fact that this issue isn’t about making things “safer”, or complaining that the ACT is too “unsafe” because of the lenience on murderers. I’m not sure where you got this ridiculous notion from (I’m not even convinced you understand the situation to any extent) but you’re clearly missing the point and trying to shape our claims into something that better suits your uninformed and misguided argument.

It’s pretty clear to all of us that you don’t have any clue what you’re talking about.

Not said :

Special G said :

All alleged murders in recent times:

Girl rufies her boyfriend and gives him a hotshot of heroin whilst hosting a dinner party – manslaughter – obviously didn’t mean to kill him.
Supreme Court even had a person convicted for aid and abet murder when no one was convicted of the murder.
Mum stabbed 38 times – manslaughter – just had a bad day cutting up some carrots.
Mum stabbed 57 times – manslaughter (57 times does not indicate intent to kill apparently)
Guy brings a knife – picks a fight then stabs the guy in the head with no prior warning claiming self defence to a fight he escalated. makes sense to anybody
Bloke with a shot gun chased down the street by an unarmed man until he had to shoot him in self defence – sure why not.
Bloke stabbed 8 times by crazy chick with a knife who then doesn’t tell anyone until later. sure – note to self don’t pick up in bars.
Guy chased out of a caravan and choked to death – self defence (because staying in the caravan wouldn’t constitute defence because the other guy was running away,)
Bloke strangles his x-wife and leaves DNA on her neck – could have got there by some other means – sure why not.

None of that seems out of the ordinary to me…

That comment demonstrates perfectly the fact that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. If that seems “ordinary” to you, then you need to look at the way the judicial system works everywhere else in the country (or indeed the world) and take note of the kind of sentences that such crimes would (and should) receive.

I ll take that on board.

Mysteryman11:32 am 29 Mar 11

Not said :

I know what exactly what it going on. Too many sheltered years of living in an safe, clean and wealthy city has you wrapped up bubble wrap. Aside from the whole opinion of the courts and the way they operate, the number of murders in Canberra wont change. They haven’t in the last 50 years. There would still be rumors and judgments flying around even if it appeared all was well in the courts. Most of us tend to forget that there is nothing you are able to control in the world but for how much you appreciate your own life. Everything else is beyond us. So while it might seem like it serves as deterrent for other would be killers, convicting murders and jailing them for eternity does nothing to make for a safer world. History clearly shows us this. What is the real issue here for you paranoid people? Vengeance is not logical explainable here as I am sure you would not let anyone else do your bidding for you? Soft or not soft on crime would be irrelevant because we would all be vigilantes and making our own minds up. But since we have all chosen to have a representative do that we will stay indoors for now.

And it would be He, standing over there in distance waiving a copy of the Canberra Times at you and not caring.

There are a number of problems with what you’re saying. I don’t have the time to expound on all of them, but I will say this:

Firstly, regardless of your views on publications like the Canberra Times, the quotes contained in the articles are what I was referring to, not the articles themselves. Unless you’re suggesting that the quotes were taken entirely out of context and that the parties were completely misrepresented, then you’re argument falls flat.

Secondly, you can’t seem to grasp the fact that this issue isn’t about making things “safer”, or complaining that the ACT is too “unsafe” because of the lenience on murderers. I’m not sure where you got this ridiculous notion from (I’m not even convinced you understand the situation to any extent) but you’re clearly missing the point and trying to shape our claims into something that better suits your uninformed and misguided argument.

It’s pretty clear to all of us that you don’t have any clue what you’re talking about.

Not said :

Special G said :

All alleged murders in recent times:

Girl rufies her boyfriend and gives him a hotshot of heroin whilst hosting a dinner party – manslaughter – obviously didn’t mean to kill him.
Supreme Court even had a person convicted for aid and abet murder when no one was convicted of the murder.
Mum stabbed 38 times – manslaughter – just had a bad day cutting up some carrots.
Mum stabbed 57 times – manslaughter (57 times does not indicate intent to kill apparently)
Guy brings a knife – picks a fight then stabs the guy in the head with no prior warning claiming self defence to a fight he escalated. makes sense to anybody
Bloke with a shot gun chased down the street by an unarmed man until he had to shoot him in self defence – sure why not.
Bloke stabbed 8 times by crazy chick with a knife who then doesn’t tell anyone until later. sure – note to self don’t pick up in bars.
Guy chased out of a caravan and choked to death – self defence (because staying in the caravan wouldn’t constitute defence because the other guy was running away,)
Bloke strangles his x-wife and leaves DNA on her neck – could have got there by some other means – sure why not.

None of that seems out of the ordinary to me…

That comment demonstrates perfectly the fact that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. If that seems “ordinary” to you, then you need to look at the way the judicial system works everywhere else in the country (or indeed the world) and take note of the kind of sentences that such crimes would (and should) receive.

Not7:28 pm 28 Mar 11

Spideydog said :

Tooks said :

buzz819 said :

I think Not is Justice Higgins, only hears what he wants to hear, makes up his own opinions from evidence and is totally useless.

Yep. He wasn’t sleeping during a recent trial, he had his head down to his Iphone reading RiotAct 😉

Ahem, I was just resting my eyes ….

I think we need a chief Justice that is in touch with community expectations, whilst still being fair to ALL parties concerned. There is beginning to be quite a large list of bizarre decisions that are quite embarrassing to say the least.

My I must say I really am surprised that in 2011 grown adults are still so scared of their own people. If it is such and issue and you care about it that much, then I urge you as citizens to take action. It is your absolute right to. Call me if I can help. xx

Spideydog9:46 am 28 Mar 11

Tooks said :

buzz819 said :

I think Not is Justice Higgins, only hears what he wants to hear, makes up his own opinions from evidence and is totally useless.

Yep. He wasn’t sleeping during a recent trial, he had his head down to his Iphone reading RiotAct 😉

Ahem, I was just resting my eyes ….

I think we need a chief Justice that is in touch with community expectations, whilst still being fair to ALL parties concerned. There is beginning to be quite a large list of bizarre decisions that are quite embarrassing to say the least.

Not9:36 pm 27 Mar 11

Special G said :

The ACT Supreme Court, specifically inJustice Higgins has been critisised in its handling of cases and evidence, sleeping on the bench, throwing out evidence because he doesn’t understand it ro found it too predjudicial to the defence case (mainly because it said they did it). Discounting witness testimonies etc.

Critisism has not only come from the public but visisting interstate judges on appeals as well.

All alleged murders in recent times:

Girl rufies her boyfriend and gives him a hotshot of heroin whilst hosting a dinner party – manslaughter – obviously didn’t mean to kill him.
Supreme Court even had a person convicted for aid and abet murder when no one was convicted of the murder.
Mum stabbed 38 times – manslaughter – just had a bad day cutting up some carrots.
Mum stabbed 57 times – manslaughter (57 times does not indicate intent to kill apparently)
Guy brings a knife – picks a fight then stabs the guy in the head with no prior warning claiming self defence to a fight he escalated. makes sense to anybody
Bloke with a shot gun chased down the street by an unarmed man until he had to shoot him in self defence – sure why not.
Bloke stabbed 8 times by crazy chick with a knife who then doesn’t tell anyone until later. sure – note to self don’t pick up in bars.
Guy chased out of a caravan and choked to death – self defence (because staying in the caravan wouldn’t constitute defence because the other guy was running away,)
Bloke strangles his x-wife and leaves DNA on her neck – could have got there by some other means – sure why not.

Why would anyone think that nothing is wrong with the system?

None of that seems out of the ordinary to me. Judges are always critical of one another. They have to be. It isn’t personal, doctors do it too. Its called professional opinion, each have earned the right to it. A handful of cases resulted in different convictions. And? There is a handful of cases still unsolved to so maybe should wait until they are brought in? It might balance out then we can all relax and go to Gus’s for a hot chocolate.

Not6:36 pm 27 Mar 11

Mysteryman said :

vg said :

Not said :

vg said :

I assume the Not is fully expressed as Not From Around Here, as your judicial analogies are appallingly inaccurate.

“Struan was a really good bloke”

-1

I know Canberra very well though I do not live there. In any case it doesn’t mean that I am not aware of what court proceedings information is on record and accessible. I happen to be a keen Canberra admirer and regularly observe the goings on there. I have family there also. I am more from Canberra than I am anywhere else.

I bet I know the Canberra judicial system, and its considerable inconsistencies (curiously many caused by a drinking buddy of the local Labor executive) much better than you. You’re out of your depth discussing it

+1

It’s evident from Not’s posts that he/she has no idea what’s going on here. Either that, or he/she does know what’s going on but chooses to ignore it. I hope it’s the first one.

I know what exactly what it going on. Too many sheltered years of living in an safe, clean and wealthy city has you wrapped up bubble wrap. Aside from the whole opinion of the courts and the way they operate, the number of murders in Canberra wont change. They haven’t in the last 50 years. There would still be rumors and judgments flying around even if it appeared all was well in the courts. Most of us tend to forget that there is nothing you are able to control in the world but for how much you appreciate your own life. Everything else is beyond us. So while it might seem like it serves as deterrent for other would be killers, convicting murders and jailing them for eternity does nothing to make for a safer world. History clearly shows us this. What is the real issue here for you paranoid people? Vengeance is not logical explainable here as I am sure you would not let anyone else do your bidding for you? Soft or not soft on crime would be irrelevant because we would all be vigilantes and making our own minds up. But since we have all chosen to have a representative do that we will stay indoors for now.

And it would be He, standing over there in distance waiving a copy of the Canberra Times at you and not caring.

Not8:12 pm 25 Mar 11

Mysteryman said :

Not said :

Mysteryman said :

Not said :

Stop with this whole murder conviction consistency nonsense. The Australian legal system works on a pluralist ideal that means from time to time, someone somewhere will get the wrong outcome. But this system is the only one we have and it is working fine. Is it unsafe in the ACT? I would be chanting at the cops for the unsolved ones instead of a spinning a conspiracy theory claiming a bench of lenient judges. Move on already.

No article from the Canberra Times can ever be considered a reliable and credible source. And it only serves to confirm suspicions that it is your main supply of facts relating to criminal cases and that is of real concern. I just still can’t see how conclusions are drawn by the lack of murder convictions relative to charges laid that has many forming the assumption of a corrupted or lenient court operating in Canberra. Of course it is! What other explanation could there be? It assumes that some how a murder was committed when the judiciary has not found that? A tad on the presumptuous side. Where is the evidence to support it? Rumors and innuendo don’t count, and niether does intuition or use of a clarevoyant, crystals with special powers or channel nine. What I think it comes down to a lack of access to accurate information and also what is reported versus what is unreported, as I am sure not everyone is sitting in the court house all day hearing case after case (not a bad way to get the whole story with free bonus context thrown in if you must know the facts) Rarely do you read about lengthy sentences, they just don’t seem that interesting I guess. All that aside, how much difference to your life would it make to see the roughly one or two murders that take place in the ACT each year, result in convictions for murder?And I would love to know what is motivating the need to see it as such? Historically the murder rate for Canberra hasn’t moved up or down significantly ever (Wouldn’t one be grateful murders are not as frequent as one might be convinced?) I have said it before I am sure, but when people start complaining about sentences handed down by the courts, for all other citizens who have had someone they loved murdered and whose day in Court has never come at all, it is just demeaning and insulting. Spare a thought for them please. Be thankful for the system you have and for charges to be heard at all. If there is injustice taking place as speculated, it will be no doubt investigated and resolved in its own time. Remembering the many wrongly jailed victims around the country, we have seen that eventually justice can be done in time. The law and the appeals avenues have allowed for it and it is still justice at the end albeit a hard version to stomach. I don;t know of a case where that has happened in a Canberra court, though I am open to the possibility it has? Recent times? I am happy to write to your local newspaper on your behalf and demand they stop telling stories that give you nightmares. It is the least I can do.

JB, is there a link you can provide with that extract so I can read the whole finding? As much as I love reading lawyer language terms. Interested to read over it.

Evidently, there are a LOT of people who disagree with your assertion that “this system is…working fine”. By “working fine”, do you mean allowing murderers to be convicted of less serious charges and subsequently facing less serious sentences? Because that’s what’s happening.

It’s no coincidence that murder convictions stopped in the ACT in 1998. Legislation made it almost impossible to get a murder conviction in the territory, and so prosecutors opted to go for less serious charges (such as manslaughter). Add to this the fact that people like Chief Justice Higgins are well known in legal profession to be “soft” on crime and you end up with not a conspiracy, but a sad reality that the system in the ACT isn’t working as well as it should.

What a load of unsupported speculation. I am sure that the DPP would love to hear about your excuse for their alleged inability to secure murder convictions. Justice Higgins is the Chief Justice because he knows his profession better than most. To infer that any justice would be, and I quote, “Soft” on crime, ( assuming you meant on sentencing criminal matters) is as bout as cynical and unaware as I have heard. But if you are generally so convinced, then I guess just stay indoors until its safe to come out.

Of course. The fact that this is the first murder convinction in 13 years must be put down to coincidence, surely. It can’t possibly have anything to do with the problems in our legal system, right? Perhaps you should talk to members of the AFP. The majority of officers/forensics personnel I’ve spoken seem to agree with me.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/police-argue-act-murder-law-too-lenient/1575730.aspx

So did the ACT Labor government:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/labor-promises-murder-law-change-if-reelected/1239779.aspx

Reading between the lines, you can see that the current government doesn’t seem to have as much faith in the Justices as you do.

http://www.chiefminister.act.gov.au/media.php?v=10450

You don’t seem to understand much about the situation so it’s probably better you keep your head buried in the sand and pretend like the AFP, the government, and many of the informed voters are making “unsupported” claims.

Mysteryman5:52 pm 25 Mar 11

Not said :

Mysteryman said :

Not said :

Stop with this whole murder conviction consistency nonsense. The Australian legal system works on a pluralist ideal that means from time to time, someone somewhere will get the wrong outcome. But this system is the only one we have and it is working fine. Is it unsafe in the ACT? I would be chanting at the cops for the unsolved ones instead of a spinning a conspiracy theory claiming a bench of lenient judges. Move on already.

Evidently, there are a LOT of people who disagree with your assertion that “this system is…working fine”. By “working fine”, do you mean allowing murderers to be convicted of less serious charges and subsequently facing less serious sentences? Because that’s what’s happening.

It’s no coincidence that murder convictions stopped in the ACT in 1998. Legislation made it almost impossible to get a murder conviction in the territory, and so prosecutors opted to go for less serious charges (such as manslaughter). Add to this the fact that people like Chief Justice Higgins are well known in legal profession to be “soft” on crime and you end up with not a conspiracy, but a sad reality that the system in the ACT isn’t working as well as it should.

What a load of unsupported speculation. I am sure that the DPP would love to hear about your excuse for their alleged inability to secure murder convictions. Justice Higgins is the Chief Justice because he knows his profession better than most. To infer that any justice would be, and I quote, “Soft” on crime, ( assuming you meant on sentencing criminal matters) is as bout as cynical and unaware as I have heard. But if you are generally so convinced, then I guess just stay indoors until its safe to come out.

Of course. The fact that this is the first murder convinction in 13 years must be put down to coincidence, surely. It can’t possibly have anything to do with the problems in our legal system, right? Perhaps you should talk to members of the AFP. The majority of officers/forensics personnel I’ve spoken seem to agree with me.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/police-argue-act-murder-law-too-lenient/1575730.aspx

So did the ACT Labor government:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/labor-promises-murder-law-change-if-reelected/1239779.aspx

Reading between the lines, you can see that the current government doesn’t seem to have as much faith in the Justices as you do.

http://www.chiefminister.act.gov.au/media.php?v=10450

You don’t seem to understand much about the situation so it’s probably better you keep your head buried in the sand and pretend like the AFP, the government, and many of the informed voters are making “unsupported” claims.

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