How not to talk to women in the workplace

Morelia said :

@ rubaiyat:

I was not saying that claiming to have a boyfriend to evade unwanted attention makes women objects, merely that that particular defence (and the way that it works better than personal-agency based answers) is an example of how women have to deal with possession-based objectification.:

“Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.”

And by the same logic when I say I have a girlfriend/wife it declares me “already owned by another female”. Which seems to spur some women on, as it declares me to be an already broken-in, desirable mate.

It seems to me you have taken a course that has given you startlingly ‘new’ thoughts you never had.

I noticed quite a lot of students at university who were being challenged to think for themselves for the first time in their lives and find themselves in the absence of anything else, latching onto anything said with absolute conviction. Merely showing that previous ideas are flawed does not guarantee any proposed alternatives are not equally flawed. This is not a matter of barracking for the home team.

Equality is a noble and practical objective. Feminism too often becomes a self driven ideological power grab serving certain people’s self interest, or as a set of boilerplate excuses. Like most movements it starts off with a noble objective and then descends into huge portions of nonsense as the contradictions and inconsistencies creep in, and the claims sustained by the new recruits’ ignorance escalate.

watto23 said :

Maya123 said :

watto23 said, “Feminism is not what society needs. Equalism is what we need.”

Um er, weird comment as feminism means equality. When someone makes comments like that I can only think they prefer inequality, and have invented a personal definition of feminism to suit personal prejudices.

From reading comments here, it is obvious males and females have different ideas of what is offensive.

Feminism does not equal Equalism. Feminists often go way over the top. Feminists never feel that a man could be hard done by, because they’ve always been the dominant gender etc etc. Feminists argue that female dominated careers deserve being paid more. Equalists would argue that men and women doing the same job deserve the same pay and acknowledge that men and women are different and there are female and male dominated professions. Whether a profession deserves more pay should be irrelevant to the gender that dominates that profession.

However its got to the point that a man could not do childcare and less do teaching, because feminism means men are worried of being labelled a pervert or child molester by an over zealous parent.

Men also suffer domestic abuse. Now a very small number of course but I know of a case and the man basically had no support and was accused by others that he must have hit her first.

That is the issue I have with feminists, they can overstep the line and say oh I’m a woman and we’ve been treated badly by men for centuries. Nope that doesn’t cut it, if its good for one gender its good for both genders and we also still need to realise that we are different and there are natural differences. Aggressive feminism isn’t the answer.

Thank you, you make my point here.

Re childcare. After I retired (a job with about equal males and females) I worked part time in after school childcare for a while and there were several men employed there. Probably more females, but still a high percentage of males. Perhaps there would have been more males if they had bothered to apply for the job. But that is up to the individual to do so.

Re supposed different abilities between the sexes. I prefer people are treated as individuals and not presumed to have certain abilities and weaknesses because they are male or female. For instance, I am not supposed to be able to read maps because I am female, but I have never had any difficulty with this simple task. I could give other examples too. An example of sexism to prove sexism. Years ago I did a well known (at the time) so called question and answer test to ‘prove’ the difference between the sexes. Sorry, can’t remember the name as it was a number of years ago now, but at the time I remember it was discussed. First point; if you are female, add so much to your score. From memory it was quite a high number of points, virtually guaranteeing females would score differently from males. I am unconvinced that even if there is a difference in ability it is very great. I suspect there is a difference in self-assuredness, self-worth and aggression though.

Maya123 said :

watto23 said, “Feminism is not what society needs. Equalism is what we need.”

Um er, weird comment as feminism means equality. When someone makes comments like that I can only think they prefer inequality, and have invented a personal definition of feminism to suit personal prejudices.

From reading comments here, it is obvious males and females have different ideas of what is offensive.

Feminism does not equal Equalism. Feminists often go way over the top. Feminists never feel that a man could be hard done by, because they’ve always been the dominant gender etc etc. Feminists argue that female dominated careers deserve being paid more. Equalists would argue that men and women doing the same job deserve the same pay and acknowledge that men and women are different and there are female and male dominated professions. Whether a profession deserves more pay should be irrelevant to the gender that dominates that profession.

However its got to the point that a man could not do childcare and less do teaching, because feminism means men are worried of being labelled a pervert or child molester by an over zealous parent.

Men also suffer domestic abuse. Now a very small number of course but I know of a case and the man basically had no support and was accused by others that he must have hit her first.

That is the issue I have with feminists, they can overstep the line and say oh I’m a woman and we’ve been treated badly by men for centuries. Nope that doesn’t cut it, if its good for one gender its good for both genders and we also still need to realise that we are different and there are natural differences. Aggressive feminism isn’t the answer.

switch said :

Well this is all going nowhere as usual.

Good one switch. But I would like to know what Heather meant by ” infantilising ” . Haven’t come across this one before.

Maya123 said :

watto23 said, “Feminism is not what society needs. Equalism is what we need.”

Um er, weird comment as feminism means equality. When someone makes comments like that I can only think they prefer inequality, and have invented a personal definition of feminism to suit personal prejudices.

From reading comments here, it is obvious males and females have different ideas of what is offensive.

See, I find it offensive when people claim feminism means “equality”. Even if you assume that the dictionary definition of feminism is correct (which is a massive assumption), feminism only means promoting equality in areas where females are currently disadvantaged. If feminism was 100% successful, we still wouldn’t have a society based on equality.

Morelia said :

Okay, in lieu of allowing this thread a dignified death, let’s try this another way:

First, go look up “mainsplaining”. It may offend the delicate sensibilities of some men, but by dint of being male, you don’t actually get to lecture women on what constitutes sexism. Sorry.

Mysteryman said :

JaneQBN said :

Mysteryman said :

To assume that being male magically grants someone a position of power and advantage, if you will, is just as offensive as the views about women that you take exception too.

It’s an interesting facet of privilege, that it’s so often invisible to the ones who occupy it, isn’t it? Everybody is entitled to feel offended, of course. If you feel offended by the assertion that white maleness conveys privilege, perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavour for you to look inside at *why* this offends you. Is it because on some level, it hurts? Makes you feel like the pedestal isn’t of your own making?

There are a lot of comments here to the effect that “we’re being told to think about what we say to women and minorities, and that’s really hard and it will all be political correctness gone insane! We won’t have anything left to talk about but the weather!”

If this is your point of view, it suggests that you feel like you have to comply to some standard because you’re being made to. Which further suggests a lack of insight into the reasons why rethinking interpersonal exchanges might be beneficial. A lack of empathy, in short.

Far more useful than trying to meet a set of standards you don’t understand would be learning about feminism for yourself. Take a walk into that uncomfortable valley and you’ll be amazed at the things you see that you never had the imagination to suspect. You will find that feminism is good for both men and women, and that we are both lessened by patriarchy.
And then you won’t have to try to appease the PC brigade, because you’ll understand.

LOL hypocritical much?

@ rubaiyat:

I was not saying that claiming to have a boyfriend to evade unwanted attention makes women objects, merely that that particular defence (and the way that it works better than personal-agency based answers) is an example of how women have to deal with possession-based objectification.

Morelia said :

I messed up the quotes on the last post. It wasn’t JaneQBN, but me, who said:

It’s an interesting facet of privilege, that it’s so often invisible to the ones who occupy it, isn’t it?

Its an interesting facet of “privilege”, that it’s so often used by people as a excuse for not taking responsibility for own life choices and failures and at the same time allowing you to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as simply too privileged to notice the amazing invisible force that somehow affords them a myriad of benefits just because of an arbitrarily chosen feature.

Yay privilege! Now excuse me, I’ve got to head off to my local Patriarchy meeting. I believe tonight’s topic is : Increasing the gender Pay gap and forcing women to do unpaid house work.

watto23 said, “Feminism is not what society needs. Equalism is what we need.”

Um er, weird comment as feminism means equality. When someone makes comments like that I can only think they prefer inequality, and have invented a personal definition of feminism to suit personal prejudices.

From reading comments here, it is obvious males and females have different ideas of what is offensive.

Morelia said :

To all the men saying “It’s not meant to be offensive, but some people are determined to take offence”, it’s worth considering that you haven’t grown up in a culture that objectifies and demeans you as a matter of course. Using overly familiar terminology towards a woman may not be intended to cause harm, but it’s important to recognise that it’s used in a culture that all too often designates women as being a form of property.
Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.
So no, of course you don’t mean to be degrading when you use overly familiar pet names towards a woman such as “darl, honey, love” etc, but you also aren’t stopping to consider that said woman’s experience is likely to include a fair amount of very uncomfortable overly-familiar behaviour from men who didn’t know where the line was. And used within our patriarchal culture it is a form of possession and control.
To say that it’s okay because you don’t feel offended when women use the same terminology towards you is to ignore the imbalance of gender power. Same as saying you don’t feel threatened being followed by a woman in a dark alley at night means a woman shouldn’t feel threatened in the same situation, genders reversed.

I’d talk about the collective noun “girls”, but I’ve exhausted myself with this rant.

+1

Morelia said :

To all the men saying “It’s not meant to be offensive, but some people are determined to take offence”, it’s worth considering that you haven’t grown up in a culture that objectifies and demeans you as a matter of course. Using overly familiar terminology towards a woman may not be intended to cause harm, but it’s important to recognise that it’s used in a culture that all too often designates women as being a form of property.
Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.
So no, of course you don’t mean to be degrading when you use overly familiar pet names towards a woman such as “darl, honey, love” etc, but you also aren’t stopping to consider that said woman’s experience is likely to include a fair amount of very uncomfortable overly-familiar behaviour from men who didn’t know where the line was. And used within our patriarchal culture it is a form of possession and control.
To say that it’s okay because you don’t feel offended when women use the same terminology towards you is to ignore the imbalance of gender power. Same as saying you don’t feel threatened being followed by a woman in a dark alley at night means a woman shouldn’t feel threatened in the same situation, genders reversed.

I’d talk about the collective noun “girls”, but I’ve exhausted myself with this rant.

I agree with all the aggrieved people, both male and female, who have posted here on this subject and it has inspired me to invite you all to a BBQ at my place this weekend – ladies please bring a plate.

I messed up the quotes on the last post. It wasn’t JaneQBN, but me, who said:

It’s an interesting facet of privilege, that it’s so often invisible to the ones who occupy it, isn’t it? Everybody is entitled to feel offended, of course. If you feel offended by the assertion that white maleness conveys privilege, perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavour for you to look inside at *why* this offends you. Is it because on some level, it hurts? Makes you feel like the pedestal isn’t of your own making?

There are a lot of comments here to the effect that “we’re being told to think about what we say to women and minorities, and that’s really hard and it will all be political correctness gone insane! We won’t have anything left to talk about but the weather!”

If this is your point of view, it suggests that you feel like you have to comply to some standard because you’re being made to. Which further suggests a lack of insight into the reasons why rethinking interpersonal exchanges might be beneficial. A lack of empathy, in short.

Far more useful than trying to meet a set of standards you don’t understand would be learning about feminism for yourself. Take a walk into that uncomfortable valley and you’ll be amazed at the things you see that you never had the imagination to suspect. You will find that feminism is good for both men and women, and that we are both lessened by patriarchy.
And then you won’t have to try to appease the PC brigade, because you’ll understand.

Okay, in lieu of allowing this thread a dignified death, let’s try this another way:

First, go look up “mainsplaining”. It may offend the delicate sensibilities of some men, but by dint of being male, you don’t actually get to lecture women on what constitutes sexism. Sorry.

Mysteryman said :

JaneQBN said :

Mysteryman said :

To assume that being male magically grants someone a position of power and advantage, if you will, is just as offensive as the views about women that you take exception too.

It’s an interesting facet of privilege, that it’s so often invisible to the ones who occupy it, isn’t it? Everybody is entitled to feel offended, of course. If you feel offended by the assertion that white maleness conveys privilege, perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavour for you to look inside at *why* this offends you. Is it because on some level, it hurts? Makes you feel like the pedestal isn’t of your own making?

There are a lot of comments here to the effect that “we’re being told to think about what we say to women and minorities, and that’s really hard and it will all be political correctness gone insane! We won’t have anything left to talk about but the weather!”

If this is your point of view, it suggests that you feel like you have to comply to some standard because you’re being made to. Which further suggests a lack of insight into the reasons why rethinking interpersonal exchanges might be beneficial. A lack of empathy, in short.

Far more useful than trying to meet a set of standards you don’t understand would be learning about feminism for yourself. Take a walk into that uncomfortable valley and you’ll be amazed at the things you see that you never had the imagination to suspect. You will find that feminism is good for both men and women, and that we are both lessened by patriarchy.
And then you won’t have to try to appease the PC brigade, because you’ll understand.

Dame Canberra said :

rubaiyat said :

You may be listening to what you imagine has been said.

Sorry, what?

Eh? What “what”?

Going back on Morella’s “proof” of women as property, that they say they have a boyfriend just to fend off unwelcome advances.

I must be an object, I have had to use that myself.

Well this is all going nowhere as usual.

rubaiyat said :

You may be listening to what you imagine has been said.

Sorry, what?

Mysteryman said :

Tolerance and equality need to be practised by everyone. Including those who believe themselves to be the disadvantaged and marginalised in our society. Not just by those who are told they are the perpetrators.

My wife, who is Chinese Australian, really dislikes ALL male Indians, and she herself was subjected to a highly offensive remark from an Aboriginal once. Not an isolated case but an example of everyone has their prejudices.

Our marriage is not so unusual now but despite we have been married a very long time we still encounter the odd prejudices and presumptions, despite the fact she is the one with the five degrees.

Morelia said :

To all the men saying “It’s not meant to be offensive, but some people are determined to take offence”, it’s worth considering that you haven’t grown up in a culture that objectifies and demeans you as a matter of course. Using overly familiar terminology towards a woman may not be intended to cause harm, but it’s important to recognise that it’s used in a culture that all too often designates women as being a form of property.
Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.
So no, of course you don’t mean to be degrading when you use overly familiar pet names towards a woman such as “darl, honey, love” etc, but you also aren’t stopping to consider that said woman’s experience is likely to include a fair amount of very uncomfortable overly-familiar behaviour from men who didn’t know where the line was. And used within our patriarchal culture it is a form of possession and control.
To say that it’s okay because you don’t feel offended when women use the same terminology towards you is to ignore the imbalance of gender power. Same as saying you don’t feel threatened being followed by a woman in a dark alley at night means a woman shouldn’t feel threatened in the same situation, genders reversed.

I’d talk about the collective noun “girls”, but I’ve exhausted myself with this rant.

You may be listening to what you imagine has been said. Perhaps that was what we were referring to when we spoke of cases determined to find offence.

I don’t normally refer to women as girls, even though they seem not to find offence when they call each other that. I also find being called “love” or “darl” or “boys” by women of a certain age or background quite endearing. I certainly wouldn’t make a case out of it even if it didn’t quite fit. And normally I tone down anything that can be even vaguely taken as sexually suggestive, until it is clear that familiarity and personal taste suggests it is OK.

However in any relaxed conversation it is awful to have to stick to the weather and sports.

That is the kind of conversation I avoid at all costs. You can say that vacuousness offends me for its sheer pointlessness.

I am not going to make myself popular by saying that women usually manage to contradict themselves. Trying to have it both ways they tie themselves up in horrible knots. In fact their presumptions of what men do or don’t say is usually sexist in itself.

Another observation, based on long experience, is that it is the women who frequently oppress each other. Men rarely care what women wear, but it seems that is the first thing my wife comments on about someone speaking on a serious subject. I also remember it was the girls who objected when I questioned why they did soft subjects, rather than maths and science, in High School and University.

I also watched how the women at university dropped out one by one in the early years of the course, falling back on marriage or some other relationship. Something men can rarely do.

It didn’t stop when I went to work. I asked a couple of women in my first office why they held back when they seemed more competent than their bosses, only to be dismissed as weird. One of those I remember even bragging how she could get what she wanted from her boss just with a bit of flirting.

That may very well be part of the overall problem, hard to let go of a tactic that works for you. Until it doesn’t.

JaneQBN said :

Mysteryman said :

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

Mysteryman, it has absolutely nothing to do with seeking offence. The problem is when such language is used against a disadvantaged or marginalised group by members of a group that hold more power.

Whether you like to admit it or not, women are disadvantaged – even in our modern, 1st world society – according to just about every measure there is. So when men use such terms to address them, terms that women are describing right here as demeaning, infantilising, insulting – it’s a problem.

If the young men you’re referring to were marginalised, then being referred to in this way would be a different story and a real cause for concern. It reinforces that paradigm.

Likewise, there are many words that aren’t the slightest bit offensive to me, but are considered deeply inappropriate when used against people of colour, Indigenous Australians, etc etc. So, in these cases, I figure it’s not up to me to decide it’s not offensive, because it’s not targeted in an offensive way toward me.

You really can’t just apply a ‘it’s okay for me, then it’s okay for them’ approach to these situations.

Further relevant reading: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/damon-young/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280.html

So, by your logic, white men are the only advantaged and non-marginalised group in society? Therefore, it should be their responsibility to accommodate everyone else’s preferences at the expense of their own, despite the fact that the current generation isn’t responsible for the “sins of their fathers” and the position that you feel we’ve ended up in..? Interesting that you feel intent is irrelevant, and that the deciding factor is the context of historical and present social hierarchy, which I think is open to far greater (mis)interpretation.

I’m afraid I simply don’t agree with you. I think intent is far more important – especially since you don’t know what environment, social paradigms, or marginalisation shaped the view of the people you’re taking offence from. To assume that being male magically grants someone a position of power and advantage, if you will, is just as offensive as the views about women that you take exception too.

Tolerance and equality need to be practised by everyone. Including those who believe themselves to be the disadvantaged and marginalised in our society. Not just by those who are told they are the perpetrators.

Mysteryman said :

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

Mysteryman, it has absolutely nothing to do with seeking offence. The problem is when such language is used against a disadvantaged or marginalised group by members of a group that hold more power.

Whether you like to admit it or not, women are disadvantaged – even in our modern, 1st world society – according to just about every measure there is. So when men use such terms to address them, terms that women are describing right here as demeaning, infantilising, insulting – it’s a problem.

If the young men you’re referring to were marginalised, then being referred to in this way would be a different story and a real cause for concern. It reinforces that paradigm.

Likewise, there are many words that aren’t the slightest bit offensive to me, but are considered deeply inappropriate when used against people of colour, Indigenous Australians, etc etc. So, in these cases, I figure it’s not up to me to decide it’s not offensive, because it’s not targeted in an offensive way toward me.

You really can’t just apply a ‘it’s okay for me, then it’s okay for them’ approach to these situations.

Further relevant reading: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/damon-young/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280.html

Morelia said :

To all the men saying “It’s not meant to be offensive, but some people are determined to take offence”, it’s worth considering that you haven’t grown up in a culture that objectifies and demeans you as a matter of course. Using overly familiar terminology towards a woman may not be intended to cause harm, but it’s important to recognise that it’s used in a culture that all too often designates women as being a form of property.
Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.
So no, of course you don’t mean to be degrading when you use overly familiar pet names towards a woman such as “darl, honey, love” etc, but you also aren’t stopping to consider that said woman’s experience is likely to include a fair amount of very uncomfortable overly-familiar behaviour from men who didn’t know where the line was. And used within our patriarchal culture it is a form of possession and control.
To say that it’s okay because you don’t feel offended when women use the same terminology towards you is to ignore the imbalance of gender power. Same as saying you don’t feel threatened being followed by a woman in a dark alley at night means a woman shouldn’t feel threatened in the same situation, genders reversed.

I’d talk about the collective noun “girls”, but I’ve exhausted myself with this rant.

Just curious, but how did we jump from ‘familiar terms’ to ‘unwanted advances’?

I’d also point out that using terms such as ‘darl, honey, love’ seems to be the domain of women in the workforce, not men.

Sorry, but I think you are jumping at shadows with this post.

To all the men saying “It’s not meant to be offensive, but some people are determined to take offence”, it’s worth considering that you haven’t grown up in a culture that objectifies and demeans you as a matter of course. Using overly familiar terminology towards a woman may not be intended to cause harm, but it’s important to recognise that it’s used in a culture that all too often designates women as being a form of property.
Don’t believe me? The most common excuse a woman will use to deflect unwanted advances is to say she already has a boyfriend. This excuse works much better than any based in her own agency or desires because it declares her as “already owned by another male”.
So no, of course you don’t mean to be degrading when you use overly familiar pet names towards a woman such as “darl, honey, love” etc, but you also aren’t stopping to consider that said woman’s experience is likely to include a fair amount of very uncomfortable overly-familiar behaviour from men who didn’t know where the line was. And used within our patriarchal culture it is a form of possession and control.
To say that it’s okay because you don’t feel offended when women use the same terminology towards you is to ignore the imbalance of gender power. Same as saying you don’t feel threatened being followed by a woman in a dark alley at night means a woman shouldn’t feel threatened in the same situation, genders reversed.

I’d talk about the collective noun “girls”, but I’ve exhausted myself with this rant.

dungfungus said :

Some people demand to be offended.

I second that.

Had a young female employee who killed all the humorous banter that had made the workplace tolerable.

She seemed to take everything she didn’t like (a very long list) as being against her, down to the choice of music being played by the owner of the business.

Any attempts at trying to accommodate her only confirmed the correctness of her own opinions.

I understand that the sentiment behind calling women “girls” or “darling” generally isn’t intended to be sexist or negative (often quite the opposite), but it can feel condescending at times. I used to work in a marketing team of three (myself and two males) and I found that being called “love” often preceded being asked by my supervisor to pick up catering, tidy up the kitchen or perform other tasks that the more junior male members of my team were never asked.

In that context, not okay. But I don’t feel like calling the all-female admin team “admin girls” or the men in IT the “IT boys” is a bad thing.

When it comes to equality in the workplace I’d rather go after employees who think its okay to pay a male team member more than their female manager, which happened to me in a former life in the private sector.

On the other hand, I find being called “Lovely” or “Darling” by female shop assistants almost equally as infuriating.

If someone takes offense to something in the workplace, you refrain from calling them that thing…

Male or female…

Some people will suck it up and be fine, other people will moan about it… it’s up to you, the individual, to address other people in a way that they don’t take offense to.

You’ll get the whingers who complain about everything of course, but that’s just the way it is.

Let’s see, we have the boys in IT, the ladies in accounts, the girls on reception, or the venerable greybeards (I liked that one). “Team” sounds a bit to American corporate hype-like to me, the sort of thing you’d expect from someone who thinks a short sleeve shirt and a tie is appropriate work attire, too impersonal, too PC, too PS and too much BS.

I think I heat the rattle of the tea lady’s cart, better go a get a brew.

I find words like ‘budget review’, ‘cutback’, ‘outsourced’, ‘efficiency dividend’, and ‘redundancy’ to be very confronting language when used in the workplace.

Mysteryman said :

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

Some people demand to be offended.

Dame Canberra said :

This is one of my biggest peeves in the workplace, though in my experience it’s far worse in the private sector than in the public service (which is too PC for its own good, but that’s another story).

In a previous job the business owner used to send emails to the three women in the office (aged between mid-twenties and mid-forties) asking if the “girls” could please answer the phone and greet guests when the receptionist was away. Never mind that there were over 20 men in the office who could also hear the phone ringing and keep an eye on the lobby. The “girls” were also recruited to set up for office morning teas and clean the staff kitchen, and in two years I never saw a man asked to perform the same duties. The business owner was female too, so I would say both genders have a lot of room for improvement!

I have seen from time to time headlines in daily papers saying “another job for the boys” in relation to job appointments made by politicians.
These reports are usually authored by female reporters. How is that for some gender balance?

Mysteryman said :

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

Agree. I’m all for women being treated as equals in society. I go by actions speak louder than words. The problem is for every man making life difficult for women in the workforce, there is an equally militant feminist doing the same, thinking they are making life better for women.

Feminism is not what society needs. Equalism is what we need. We over analyse gender all the time. I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if a women used the word darling, yet here I’m being told if a man uses it, he is sexist.
I call many of my female friends mate as much as I call male friends mate. I don’t use the word darl or darling, but thats just my generation I guess. I’ve been called far worse things by females in the office than other men. To be honest this should be equally offensive to so called feminists, but rarely is.

Society won’t get better for women if we pick every little thing up. Occasionally things are said, they may not be overly PC, but they aren’t offensive.

I’m an engineer and when I went to Uni there was 1 woman doing engineering. I don’t think it has improved much, its not like there is an aggressive anti woman movement among engineers and in IT. In fact my experience is a woman is far more likely to be hired in IT and engineering over a man, because they are just so rare and add a different perspective to discussion and teamwork.

I also hear the term “boys” used a lot (I’m a contractor to the PS). Not sure if I’ve heard “girls” used much (if at all). I only hear “boys” used to refer to a team that is all male, and as I don’t usually deal with all female teams, perhaps that’s why I don’t hear “girls” used.

I wonder if the males find “boys” offensive? Perhaps I’ll wander over and have a chat with the boys from Database and see if they find the term offensive.

Mysteryman said :

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

+ 1000000.

I’ve been called all these kinds of names at work and outside and I don’t care. Simply because I can see through the words to the meaning being conveyed, which is not in the slightest bit offensive or sexist.

Sometimes the person using this language may indeed be sexist but it’s not because of their use of these types of terms.

It’s quite normal for older women to refer to men as ‘darl’, ‘love’ or some variant. Younger women don’t tend to do this, though, in my experience.

We still have gender stereotypes. Recently at work I was asked to help lift a small filing cabinet onto a trolley, despite there being multiple females in the vicinity. Like most men, I was happy to help out rather than calling out the obvious gender stereotype on display.

While it’s true there is still some way to go in addressing genuine gender imbalance issues, especially in relation to harrassment in the workplace, I don’t think the casual and well-intentioned terminology of older workers is something that needs to be made into a battleground.

Mysteryman said :

Another thing that irks a lot of people is that fully-grown women are often referred to as “girls” (as in “go and see the girls in accounts”). Newsflash: This is infantilising and insulting, and we don’t appreciate it. We’re not in primary school, so don’t treat us as such.

I’ve seen the exact same thing countless more times when men have been referred to as “boys”. They didn’t kick up a stick, though, because they saw it as nothing to be offended about.

I’d have to agree there. If a team is all one gender, there is often a reference to that gender when talking about the team. “Go and see the boys over in Property” “the guys in Security will sign you in” etc. Where there is a mix of genders, it happens less frequently, but still does anyway because it’s just an easy, common way to refer to a group.

And I’m in the public service, not private sector.

You also talk about being overly familiar, but many guys will say to another guy, “thanks mate”, despite not knowing them very well. I think most of us are grown up enough to know when someone is being either condescending/lecherous or when they are just being a bit relaxed and mean nothing by a comment. But sure, we could go the way of the PC and sterilise the world completely. Or just join the military and only refer to colleagues by rank and/or serial number?

Another thing that irks a lot of people is that fully-grown women are often referred to as “girls” (as in “go and see the girls in accounts”). Newsflash: This is infantilising and insulting, and we don’t appreciate it. We’re not in primary school, so don’t treat us as such.

I’ve seen the exact same thing countless more times when men have been referred to as “boys”. They didn’t kick up a stick, though, because they saw it as nothing to be offended about.

I hear older women call younger men “love”, “darling”, “darl”, etc. I’ve had them refer to me as such, many, many times.

I don’t care though. You know why? Because rather than looking for offence at every possible opportunity, I accept that not everyone shows their fondness or respect in the exact same way. Older women (and some younger ones) use pet names a lot, in my experience, but it doesn’t demonstrate a lack of respect or some evil sexist agenda. It’s just how they were raised and how they speak. And in this age of ridiculous political and cultural sanitisation, it’s actually very refreshing and I welcome it.

Many older men tend to do the same thing towards younger women. I’ve seen that, too. It really seems to stick in the craw of some females, though. That’s a shame. Rather than seeing the intent, they chose to take offense.

This is one of my biggest peeves in the workplace, though in my experience it’s far worse in the private sector than in the public service (which is too PC for its own good, but that’s another story).

In a previous job the business owner used to send emails to the three women in the office (aged between mid-twenties and mid-forties) asking if the “girls” could please answer the phone and greet guests when the receptionist was away. Never mind that there were over 20 men in the office who could also hear the phone ringing and keep an eye on the lobby. The “girls” were also recruited to set up for office morning teas and clean the staff kitchen, and in two years I never saw a man asked to perform the same duties. The business owner was female too, so I would say both genders have a lot of room for improvement!