Hunting the Holt rapists

Castration with a blunt spoon and a tattoo of RAPIST on their forehead before they Holiday in the AMC.

If this ever happened to any of my daughters…

Actually I do think we as a society still have to take some blame for the behaviour of some of these idiots. The people who say to victims of assualts “What were you doing THERE? What do you expect?” “Why were you wearing that? You were asking for it?” “Why were you drinking in public?” All the blaming the victim – Rape is about power not about sex – PEOPLE REALLY!

I know a woman who was raped wearing a pair of jeans, an old sweatshirt, walking home after dropping her kids at school. Even SHE had people ask her “What did you do to attract the attention? You must have done SOMETHING to bring it on” the one that P*ssed me off “If you had fought back harder it wouldn’t have happened” WTF she was grabbed from behind by two guys! All she could think about was surviving it and getting back to her kids safely!

And the attitude that guys are given that they can “push it a little” and they will “get what they want”. That relationships aren’t important but sex is… and that a woman sitting in a bar having a drink is “obviously looking for it”

I have a friend who counsels offenders and often these guys give all sorts of excuses about why it was the woman’s fault, why she “wanted it”, why all “girls like that are just looking for it and cry rape when it gets a little rough”. Interestingly she says the one thing that can reach most of these guys is questions along the line of “What would you do if someone did that to your sister/mother/aunt?” They all say that would bash the guy or kill him and then she asks “So why did you do it to someone else’s sister/mother/aunt? And what do you think their family wants to do to you right now?” Society allows them to think of women who are outside their social networks as not human or somehow not “worthy” of decent treatment. THAT is the kind of thinking we need to address.

Flossie said :

I have two adult children, one boy and one girl. I have explicitly talked to my daughter about risk minimisation. Things like: don’t go out to civic alone or stay there after your friends have left. Don’t drink so much that you no longer know what you are doing. Never leave with someone unless someone knows who you have gone with. I have also explicitly told her that no matter what she does, nobody has the right to assault her, that that would never be her fault. But the reality of the world in which we live is that responsible people take reasonable steps to mitigate risk.

But it occurs to me that while I have spoken to my son about risk minimisation: don’t get into fights, don’t drink so much you don’t know what you are doing, never get in the car with a driver who has been drinking etc, I have never actually explicitly talked to him about consent. Never explicitly said “don’t be a rapist”. I have just assumed that he knows these things, because to me they are self evident.

I am going to talk to him when he gets off work today. If he already knows it, gets it, then no harm no foul. If he doesn’t, he will now.

This x a million.

It’s not enough to just say to women* “don’t get raped” – if a rapist decides to rape someone it means f-all what their victim does. It’s important to say “Don’t be a rapist” to men* as well. Maybe it seems obvious but obtaining informed, continuous consent is difficult in a situation where lots of alcohol is involved and appears to elude many young people.

*obviously both of these go for both genders but the overwhelming majority of ‘don’t get raped’ messages are aimed at young women – at least in my experience

The term sexual assault is generic as it includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), inappropriate touching, forced kissing etc. We don’t know what exactly the young female was subjected to by these animals but nonetheless it must have been horrific.

What i find both disturbing and revolting is that in the US,according to wikipedia, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, mothers, sisters and uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as friends of the family, babysitters, or neighbors; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases.If these statistics in any way reflect what occurs in this country then we have a massive problem that needs to be tackled by all levels of society.

Physical castration and Penectomy.. Mandatory. I think these young guys might think twice if they know they loss anything they hold dear if they are caught…. Also less chance of re-offending.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the perpetrators of rape. They are abysmal excuses for humanity that deserve punishment.

It is illogical to blame “society” for these crimes when the vast majority of people in the same society, even from the same backgrounds, are NOT rapists. There is something about these individual guys that lets them do this and still sleep well at night.

But. If we were to make the death penalty the punishment for rape, then I think we would still have as many rapes but they would end in murder not release. If a rapist has NOTHING to lose, why wouldn’t he do away with his witness?

(not to mention that there is no deterant value to the death penalty, serious crimes increase in states in the US that have it. It is also more expensive than housing these pieces of excrement for the term of their natural life. And it’s savagery, don’t get me wrong, I am not apologizing for these subhumans, some deserve to be away from civilization forever, but really, state sanctioned murder? That’s how we want to solve this?)

Oh and to the person who talked about multiculturalism being a factor. My rapists were white Aussies. The few friends of mine who have been through being raped, we’re raped by white Aussies. Your argument lacks an evidentiary basis.

The punishment if found guilty should be minimum life maximum death!!! If the boys have parents they should receive 5 years for bringing up such scum! Bet they’re on welfare bet their parents are on welfare too! You need a licence to drive how about a licence to breed???

bundah said :

LSWCHP said :

I’ll also add that if this were to happen to my beautiful daughter, I would find the people responsible and make them cry. No matter how long it took.

Ah yes the wadcutter would certainly ram the point home!

Perceptive indeed. 🙂

Truthiness said :

So I have spent some more time questioning my assumptions and researching the factors which lead to rape.

At first glance the first world countries with the softest punishments also have amongst the highest rate of rape. Sweden leads the world in both rape per capita and rehibilition. However this is misleading, since Sweden also has a broader definition of rape, a higher conviction rate and less recidivism. Their problem also centers around new immigrants and wealth disparity, so its hard to blame it on soft punishment.

Drawing parallels internationally can be tricky, but it is broadly clear that rape is most problematic in countries where women are afraid to come forward. The middle east ostensibly has some of the lowest rape rates in the world, while it is tempting to thank the harsh punishment they dish out, it is worth noting you can be killed for being claiming you were raped, and that doubtless skews the figures. Australia and New Zealand have some of the highest rates of reported rapes, but it is hard to tell how much of that is because people feel safer reporting it.

Intentional homicide is easier to draw international conclusions from, the rate is highest in countries with minimal law at all. It is medium in countries with the toughest punishments, and lowest of all in countries with a focus on rehabilitation.

What is clear from surveys is that many Australian males feel non-consensual sex is OK in some circumstances, and women are still hesitant to report it. I’d suggest that addressing those social perceptions would do more to reduce rape than even the harshest sentencing.

I am not confident making claims about human nature based off a couple of thousand years of recorded history. We know from genetic studies that most of humanity was wiped out about 75,000 years ago. It is likely the survivors were the most ruthless and cunning, and they created the pyramidal power structures which have defined societies ever since. To say the societies created and ruled by psychopaths, are representative of human nature, does great disservice to the numerous peaceful societies we have left destroyed in our wake.

Can you tell us what drugs you are currently, or previously were on?

LSWCHP said :

I’ll also add that if this were to happen to my beautiful daughter, I would find the people responsible and make them cry. No matter how long it took.

Ah yes the wadcutter would certainly ram the point home!

johnboy said :

Whereas if we publicly castrated with a pair of bricks and auctioned the bricks (and the TV rights) we’d have a strong deterrent and a revenue stream.

I quite like this particular technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1TmeBd9338

I’ll also add that if this were to happen to my beautiful daughter, I would find the people responsible and make them cry. No matter how long it took.

kakosi said :

Some men rape, most do not. It would help if the punishment for rape wasn’t so very pathetic. If the victim isn’t gang raped or beaten to a pulp they have little or no chance of winning a court case.

Most of the time police recommend victims don’t go to court because they can’t “prove” anything. People would be very surprised how many women around them had been raped at some point in their lives.

Agreed. I’ve known two rape victims, one of whom became pregnant and had an abortion. Neither of them reported it because they felt it would result in further pain with no gain.

Some men rape, most do not. It would help if the punishment for rape wasn’t so very pathetic. If the victim isn’t gang raped or beaten to a pulp they have little or no chance of winning a court case.

Most of the time police recommend victims don’t go to court because they can’t “prove” anything. People would be very surprised how many women around them had been raped at some point in their lives.

Truthiness said :

What is clear from surveys is that many Australian males feel non-consensual sex is OK in some circumstances, and women are still hesitant to report it. I’d suggest that addressing those social perceptions would do more to reduce rape than even the harshest sentencing.

“Many males” from certain groups (Multiculturalism at work). The overwhelming majority wouldnt commit rape and would seriously beat the crap out of someone if they knew they had hurt a woman.

In the ACT at least its obivious that most crimes are commited by repreat offenders. Once they get out they are too keen to tell all their friends how they did it. One would wonder if they have done any studies of friend crime, where the same crimes are committed by friends. If one of those goes to prision then the friend might be less likely to commit the crime for as long as the friend is in prision.

You say that most women are hesisitant to report it.. but domestic violence and most other crimes for that matter are always underreported when they are against men.

Sadly anyone who knows anything about human evolution knows that rape is a positive genetic trait for successive genome production, which means if there is a rape gene its likely to become popular.

I think its wrong that someone who violently rapes someone can one day be innocent. I would all be for a system where if you commited a crime you faced a long time in prision (maybe even lost a hand, as you wouldnt want to do it twice). Then you faced lifetime consequences, such has a poorer level of housing and really seperate out those that have done nothing wrong from those that have.

So I have spent some more time questioning my assumptions and researching the factors which lead to rape.

At first glance the first world countries with the softest punishments also have amongst the highest rate of rape. Sweden leads the world in both rape per capita and rehibilition. However this is misleading, since Sweden also has a broader definition of rape, a higher conviction rate and less recidivism. Their problem also centers around new immigrants and wealth disparity, so its hard to blame it on soft punishment.

Drawing parallels internationally can be tricky, but it is broadly clear that rape is most problematic in countries where women are afraid to come forward. The middle east ostensibly has some of the lowest rape rates in the world, while it is tempting to thank the harsh punishment they dish out, it is worth noting you can be killed for being claiming you were raped, and that doubtless skews the figures. Australia and New Zealand have some of the highest rates of reported rapes, but it is hard to tell how much of that is because people feel safer reporting it.

Intentional homicide is easier to draw international conclusions from, the rate is highest in countries with minimal law at all. It is medium in countries with the toughest punishments, and lowest of all in countries with a focus on rehabilitation.

What is clear from surveys is that many Australian males feel non-consensual sex is OK in some circumstances, and women are still hesitant to report it. I’d suggest that addressing those social perceptions would do more to reduce rape than even the harshest sentencing.

I am not confident making claims about human nature based off a couple of thousand years of recorded history. We know from genetic studies that most of humanity was wiped out about 75,000 years ago. It is likely the survivors were the most ruthless and cunning, and they created the pyramidal power structures which have defined societies ever since. To say the societies created and ruled by psychopaths, are representative of human nature, does great disservice to the numerous peaceful societies we have left destroyed in our wake.

That’s it, time to send the kids to martial arts classes so they can defend themselves from these kind of scum. This is too close to home and I had just got to the point I can let my kids ride a few blocks away on their own unsupervised. That’s going to stop immediately. Thanks to the scum of our society, my kids will never enjoy freedom until they are living out of home, or the law gets a set of kahunas and uses them to punish properly.

a cry for help because society failed them? .. rusbbish.

In laymens terms this is what they call “blame shifting”. Scum of the earth who have probably been let off more times than they deserve and now some poor girl has paid a terrible price. Seriously, harden the f up.

I hope they find them and actually get a punishment that fits the crime.

If there are people who have zero thought to the consequences of this type of action, then gaol is probably the best place for them (to protect the rest of us).

caf said :

Truthiness said :

The whole notion that you can scare people out of committing crime through harsh sentencing is bogus. People do bad things like this without even considering the repercussions, it would make no difference if the punishment were prison or death, they don’t think about it.

This is overly simplistic. For some types of crimes, it’s true – someone acting in a fit of rage or under the influence of paranoid delusions isn’t likely to be rationally evaluating the consequences. But for other, more calculated crimes – where the offender has calmly planned the crime in advance, their natural risk calculus will kick in, and part of this is consideration of the consequences should they get caught.

Truthiness said :

Clearly these are confused and disturbed young men, products of a confused and disturbed society. This horrible act was like a cry for help, it is deeply saddening that these issues were not caught and treated earlier. Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

This would carry more weight if you could point to examples of less “confused and disturbed” societies, where violent crime does not occur.

On the contrary, it would seem that violent, anti-social behaviour has been a constant feature of human societies throughout history. To be blunt, it would seem that some people are just arseholes, and it has ever been thus.

Truthiness said :

Enacting harsh vengeance upon them may feel right, but it will not make them better people, it will probably make them worse.

Perhaps enacting harsh vengeance upon transgressors “feels right” because an instinct to harshly punish transgressors against societal norms has been evolutionarily beneficial to our ancestors? The humans that allowed transgressors to free-ride have not been as successful and have left fewer descendants.

Do you have a reason for supposing that it is possible to make everyone a “better person”? Isn’t it also possible that some people are innately “bad”, and the most logical response is simply to isolate them so that they cannot harm the rest of us?

Exactly and given that sexual assault is so widespread globally there are no shortage of absolute farking arseholes who deserve to be severely flogged.

Truthiness said :

The whole notion that you can scare people out of committing crime through harsh sentencing is bogus. People do bad things like this without even considering the repercussions, it would make no difference if the punishment were prison or death, they don’t think about it.

This is overly simplistic. For some types of crimes, it’s true – someone acting in a fit of rage or under the influence of paranoid delusions isn’t likely to be rationally evaluating the consequences. But for other, more calculated crimes – where the offender has calmly planned the crime in advance, their natural risk calculus will kick in, and part of this is consideration of the consequences should they get caught.

Truthiness said :

Clearly these are confused and disturbed young men, products of a confused and disturbed society. This horrible act was like a cry for help, it is deeply saddening that these issues were not caught and treated earlier. Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

This would carry more weight if you could point to examples of less “confused and disturbed” societies, where violent crime does not occur.

On the contrary, it would seem that violent, anti-social behaviour has been a constant feature of human societies throughout history. To be blunt, it would seem that some people are just arseholes, and it has ever been thus.

Truthiness said :

Enacting harsh vengeance upon them may feel right, but it will not make them better people, it will probably make them worse.

Perhaps enacting harsh vengeance upon transgressors “feels right” because an instinct to harshly punish transgressors against societal norms has been evolutionarily beneficial to our ancestors? The humans that allowed transgressors to free-ride have not been as successful and have left fewer descendants.

Do you have a reason for supposing that it is possible to make everyone a “better person”? Isn’t it also possible that some people are innately “bad”, and the most logical response is simply to isolate them so that they cannot harm the rest of us?

p1 said :

Flossie said :

I have two adult children, one boy and one girl. I have explicitly talked to my daughter about risk minimisation. Things like: don’t go out to civic alone or stay there after your friends have left. Don’t drink so much that you no longer know what you are doing. Never leave with someone unless someone knows who you have gone with. I have also explicitly told her that no matter what she does, nobody has the right to assault her, that that would never be her fault. But the reality of the world in which we live is that responsible people take reasonable steps to mitigate risk.

Sadly, you had better ad running with ear phones on to that list of risky behaviour.

I hear you, and it sucks big time that that is the world in which we live, where harmless activities need to include a level of vigilance. Even though the vast majority of the people around us are average joes, not perfect but not dangerous.

I hope the young woman from the OP gets lots of love, care and support.

Flossie said :

I have two adult children, one boy and one girl. I have explicitly talked to my daughter about risk minimisation. Things like: don’t go out to civic alone or stay there after your friends have left. Don’t drink so much that you no longer know what you are doing. Never leave with someone unless someone knows who you have gone with. I have also explicitly told her that no matter what she does, nobody has the right to assault her, that that would never be her fault. But the reality of the world in which we live is that responsible people take reasonable steps to mitigate risk.

Sadly, you had better ad running with ear phones on to that list of risky behaviour.

Grrrr said :

johnboy said :

If I know a female who’s suddenly become barely conscious after less than an hour and no more than 2 drinks in a trendy Canberra bar, there’s got to be a lot more people who have had similar experiences. There’s a number of possible others causes for it, but in the case of my friend they were quite unlikely and I would imagine that not every other incident had an alternative explanation either.

I am a very big man and a very seasoned drinker, yet I have felt decidedly woozy having only had a couple of ciders while on antibiotics.

While not wanting to trivialize the use of date rape drugs and certainly not being an expert on the matter, I’d say that there were an awful lot of cases were the lass in question or those close to her have leaped to the roofie conclusion for out of character behavior instead of considering the 12 cruisers she had before 9pm.

I should clarify, young adult, early twenties, still at home.

I have two adult children, one boy and one girl. I have explicitly talked to my daughter about risk minimisation. Things like: don’t go out to civic alone or stay there after your friends have left. Don’t drink so much that you no longer know what you are doing. Never leave with someone unless someone knows who you have gone with. I have also explicitly told her that no matter what she does, nobody has the right to assault her, that that would never be her fault. But the reality of the world in which we live is that responsible people take reasonable steps to mitigate risk.

But it occurs to me that while I have spoken to my son about risk minimisation: don’t get into fights, don’t drink so much you don’t know what you are doing, never get in the car with a driver who has been drinking etc, I have never actually explicitly talked to him about consent. Never explicitly said “don’t be a rapist”. I have just assumed that he knows these things, because to me they are self evident.

I am going to talk to him when he gets off work today. If he already knows it, gets it, then no harm no foul. If he doesn’t, he will now.

What we’re talking about here is a crime.

If it was widespread one would imagine that, just once, someone would see who the girl left the bar with and the police would find his supply.

Just once the chemist who filled the prescription would see their customer in a bar with a girl out on her feet and tell someone.

Just the once.

I’m not saying it’s never happened.

I am saying if it was widespread I would expect someone would have been caught.

It’s far from being a perfect crime, and unlikely to be performed by criminal geniuses.

People use “a few bad apples” to mean there are only small problems, that is not what the idiom originally meant though. The saying used to go “a rotten apple ruins the barrel”, which is an all together different meaning. The rotten apples can not be considered entirely separate to the barrel, they are a product of the whole, and the whole is tainted by their presence. We either keep throwing out apples as they rot, or we take a look at the barrel and figure out why so many apples are rotting.

I am not saying individuals are entirely without blame, they as individuals clearly made a choice which stripped another individual of all choice. What I am saying is that there are environmental factors which contributed to this crime, and those factors will not be addressed by only punishing the individuals.

I have been getting the troll accusation a lot, and while I am trying to stimulate discussion, I am not deliberately derailing conversations. I wouldn’t consider myself classically left-wing, I consider our left wing parties to be far too statist, authoritarian and conservative.

While it may seem unbelievable, some of us literally think Australia is still essentially a penal colony run by the old world economic empire. We have no bill of rights, practically no protected freedoms, and we are ruled by two parties which agree on nearly everything. The closest we come to a legitimate third party are the greens, who seem to think we can stop global climate change using the same market based systems which got us in this mess.

Yes, I think differently, I think we should be printing sustainable houses, striving for full self sufficiency and preparing for the disasters we know are coming. I think government should be primarily concerned with disaster preparedness, infrastructure and helping the misfortunate, and beyond that should keep out of our lives. I think armed police should be reserved solely for handling violent crimes, and should leave everyone else alone. I think we should change our economic system to escape the banks and stop sucking up to the US and UK

These views do not make me a troll, unpopular and misunderstood definitely, but I am not here to waste your time, just to make you think.

johnboy said :

Considering that to my knowledge there has never been one confirmed case of rohypnol use in Canberra

How does one confirm the number of cases, anyway? Is it simply hard to confirm? Or perhaps drink spiking occurs with other drugs than Rohypnol, and I’m not referring to excess alcohol (even if consumed unwittingly.)

If I know a female who’s suddenly become barely conscious after less than an hour and no more than 2 drinks in a trendy Canberra bar, there’s got to be a lot more people who have had similar experiences. There’s a number of possible others causes for it, but in the case of my friend they were quite unlikely and I would imagine that not every other incident had an alternative explanation either.

johnboy said :

I prefer a pair of bricks myself.

Yep. $10 per brick per minute rental with the perps suitably positioned in the Garema Place Stocks.

– It’d raise a lot of money which could be used to support the victim;

– It’d solve the problem so far as the particular perps are concerned;

– It’d bring in the tourist dollars;

– Television rights may be saleable (see #1, above);

– It’d give the perps the only opportunity they’d ever have to perform a useful function, i.e. entertainment.

What’s not to like?

peitab said :

On the whole, I agree with Truthiness and Thumper – I generally believe that the community is better served in the long run by rehabilitation instead of imprisonment.

But not in this instance. Those boys (I don’t care how old they are, they’re certainly not men) made a choice about their actions. It’s their problem that they didn’t think about the consequences and results of their actions. Now the community (i.e. courts) should make a choice about its response, and the only suitable response is gaol.

Also, should we as a community start thinking about chemical castration as a sentencing option for sex offenders?

dull, rusty knife.

I know from years of personal experience that plenty of young people will (especially when inexperienced) drink enough that no extra drugs are needed for them to get into all sorts of trouble.

Why are you so certain that something pharmaceutical is being used when it is so easy to spike someone drink with a little extra alcohol? The most simple explanation is most often the right one.

Of course, knowingly making someone drunker then they want to be and then having sex with them is as bad as what is described in the OP, but the initial participation of the victim is what the f***ing scumbags perpetrators turn into a grey area and hid in.

It would have to be near impossible for these 3 to keep it quiet. Someone will feel guilty and dob in their mate. There will be video of the car (inc rego) somewhere, even if it is just getting fuel 2 weeks ago etc.

It is only a matter of time till they get caught.

and then

“Also, should we as a community start thinking about chemical castration as a sentencing option for sex offenders?” -peitab

This will get a run

scorpio63 said :

Exactly Johnboy “no confirmed cases” which is precisely the reason I raised the facts about the ignorance or rather parts of the community unaware and oblivious to the assaults that have occurred and are continuing to occur unreported and/or inaction in relation to perpetrators of all ages.

This is Australia and the A.C.T. not the United States, Dr Rudi’s opinions are irrelevant as are the differences in the laws between Australia and the United States.

a) If it was widespread someone would have been caught in possession before now. We’re talking about serious charges. Considering that we all when young just plain drink too much I think occam’s razor leads towards it not being common.

b) Life Support was an Australian show.

Exactly Johnboy “no confirmed cases” which is precisely the reason I raised the facts about the ignorance or rather parts of the community unaware and oblivious to the assaults that have occurred and are continuing to occur unreported and/or inaction in relation to perpetrators of all ages.

This is Australia and the A.C.T. not the United States, Dr Rudi’s opinions are irrelevant as are the differences in the laws between Australia and the United States.

On the whole, I agree with Truthiness and Thumper – I generally believe that the community is better served in the long run by rehabilitation instead of imprisonment.

But not in this instance. Those boys (I don’t care how old they are, they’re certainly not men) made a choice about their actions. It’s their problem that they didn’t think about the consequences and results of their actions. Now the community (i.e. courts) should make a choice about its response, and the only suitable response is gaol.

Also, should we as a community start thinking about chemical castration as a sentencing option for sex offenders?

scorpio63 said :

Canberrans would be surprised at how many of their own sons from affluent backgrounds offer 14 and 15 yr old girls alcohol with rohypnol in it (their first alcoholic drink) drugging them, raping them, the girl(s) hide the occurrence, sink into depression, exhibit behavioural problems for years, ALL because they are told or hold the belief that if they take it to the police and court, these 17 year old and 18 year old offenders (most in years 11 and 12) will get off with a warning and no charges.

I have spent many years around girls who have been raped and molested, counselled them, most turn to drugs alcohol and suffer depression, severe anxiety and mental illnesses.

Yes, many members of society are to blame, at fault, given that many of these are Canberran parents who have failed to address their male teenage sons behaviour through their early teenage years, allowing them to be disrespectful towards females and doing the hell ‘what they want’ on weekends, while they, the parents took off to the coast or on their holidays leaving their sons unattended.

There are fantastic parents in Canberra who have ‘raised their sons well’, most sadly and unfortunately for the victims (many I know quite well years later in their twenties) it has ruined their lives and their futures of having a partner through life until their mental illnesses are cured.

Name and shame? What is the use, the police and courts cannot do a thing until the community bands together and amends legislation. Same old, same old.

Wow.

Truthiness and yourself have just bumped the crazy in this thread up to eleven.

I’m sure there’s plenty of teenagers getting drunk and having unwanted sex (both males and females), but to claim that there’s groups of males specifically drugging females with Rohypnol to rape them takes it to a whole new level. Got any evidence?

Truthiness said :

If we as a society rampantly encourage individualistic self gratification, if we use violence to dominate others and get what we want, can we really be surprised when individuals start acting the same way?

Half our media is American style glorification of violence while censoring sex, our troops are off raping other countries and we have terror laws that allow us to be abducted at anytime.

Yes there are bad apples, but individuals are still strongly affected by society, and our society has issues.

I think I should probably stop reading your comments, however, calling rapists ‘bad apples’ is bizarre. That’s a term most appropriately used for people who talk in films, perhaps stretching to those who dump rubbish inappropriately, or even, at the extreme limit, to those who park in disabled spots.

Rapists are not ‘bad apples’ as if they’ve just gone a bit off. You are strangely insulting to men who might have a difficult time but don’t take it out on women. Such people are part of our flawed society too. They’re just not given to choosing violence. Note the word choosing. You seem to see as all as mindless automatons.

scorpio63 said :

Canberrans would be surprised at how many of their own sons from affluent backgrounds offer 14 and 15 yr old girls alcohol with rohypnol in it (their first alcoholic drink) drugging them, raping them, the girl(s) hide the occurrence, sink into depression, exhibit behavioural problems for years, ALL because they are told or hold the belief that if they take it to the police and court, these 17 year old and 18 year old offenders (most in years 11 and 12) will get off with a warning and no charges.

I have spent many years around girls who have been raped and molested, counselled them, most turn to drugs alcohol and suffer depression, severe anxiety and mental illnesses.

Yes, many members of society are to blame, at fault, given that many of these are Canberran parents who have failed to address their male teenage sons behaviour through their early teenage years, allowing them to be disrespectful towards females and doing the hell ‘what they want’ on weekends, while they, the parents took off to the coast or on their holidays leaving their sons unattended.

There are fantastic parents in Canberra who have ‘raised their sons well’, most sadly and unfortunately for the victims (many I know quite well years later in their twenties) it has ruined their lives and their futures of having a partner through life until their mental illnesses are cured.

Name and shame? What is the use, the police and courts cannot do a thing until the community bands together and amends legislation. Same old, same old.

Considering that to my knowledge there has never been one confirmed case of rohypnol use in Canberra perhaps more surprising is how many young people just get dead drunk and taken advantage of.

Or as Doctor Rudi says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WCpb30lYKE

Canberrans would be surprised at how many of their own sons from affluent backgrounds offer 14 and 15 yr old girls alcohol with rohypnol in it (their first alcoholic drink) drugging them, raping them, the girl(s) hide the occurrence, sink into depression, exhibit behavioural problems for years, ALL because they are told or hold the belief that if they take it to the police and court, these 17 year old and 18 year old offenders (most in years 11 and 12) will get off with a warning and no charges.

I have spent many years around girls who have been raped and molested, counselled them, most turn to drugs alcohol and suffer depression, severe anxiety and mental illnesses.

Yes, many members of society are to blame, at fault, given that many of these are Canberran parents who have failed to address their male teenage sons behaviour through their early teenage years, allowing them to be disrespectful towards females and doing the hell ‘what they want’ on weekends, while they, the parents took off to the coast or on their holidays leaving their sons unattended.

There are fantastic parents in Canberra who have ‘raised their sons well’, most sadly and unfortunately for the victims (many I know quite well years later in their twenties) it has ruined their lives and their futures of having a partner through life until their mental illnesses are cured.

Name and shame? What is the use, the police and courts cannot do a thing until the community bands together and amends legislation. Same old, same old.

Spykler said :

farnarkler said :

I would have these two executed if caught. As there are so many on here who don’t believe in such harsh punishments, what would you think is an apt punishment???

In some countries these two would be executed.

In others, the victim would.

Simon Corbell, I would urge you to send all caught rapists to me, they will never again think of committing any crime, just provide me with a space to work -basement with drains in the floor, hose, and $500 gift voucher from Masters. 🙂

If we as a society rampantly encourage individualistic self gratification, if we use violence to dominate others and get what we want, can we really be surprised when individuals start acting the same way?

Half our media is American style glorification of violence while censoring sex, our troops are off raping other countries and we have terror laws that allow us to be abducted at anytime.

Yes there are bad apples, but individuals are still strongly affected by society, and our society has issues.

Truthiness said :

An apt punishment would be psychological rehabilitation, our priority should be stopping it from happening again, putting them in jail is likely to further destabilise them, leading to an increased chance of reoffense.

The whole notion that you can scare people out of committing crime through harsh sentencing is bogus. People do bad things like this without even considering the repercussions, it would make no difference if the punishment were prison or death, they don’t think about it.

Clearly these are confused and disturbed young men, products of a confused and disturbed society. This horrible act was like a cry for help, it is deeply saddening that these issues were not caught and treated earlier. Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

Enacting harsh vengeance upon them may feel right, but it will not make them better people, it will probably make them worse.

I’m beginning to think you are trolling, but unusually, from a mad left-wing, as opposed to crazy right-wing, position. No-one could really be so obtuse as to say rape is a ‘cry for help’. It’s an act of selected and selective violence.

What would you give them? A counselling session and a ride in a hot car to make them feel better? I’d say ten years in jail is more appropriate. Society needs protection from people like this.

Truthiness said :

An apt punishment would be psychological rehabilitation, our priority should be stopping it from happening again, putting them in jail is likely to further destabilise them, leading to an increased chance of reoffense.

The whole notion that you can scare people out of committing crime through harsh sentencing is bogus. People do bad things like this without even considering the repercussions, it would make no difference if the punishment were prison or death, they don’t think about it.

Clearly these are confused and disturbed young men, products of a confused and disturbed society. This horrible act was like a cry for help, it is deeply saddening that these issues were not caught and treated earlier. Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

Enacting harsh vengeance upon them may feel right, but it will not make them better people, it will probably make them worse.

You know what would work, have immediate effect and cause others to re think about raping someone?

Castration.

A cry for help???? How are we supposed to treat them, by asking for 16 year old volunteers to fulfill the fantasies of these scumbags.

Using the risk triangle, I propose an engineering solution. I suspect the residual risk of re-offending after the surgical (or not) separation of the testes from these individuals would be quite low.

Spykler said :

farnarkler said :

I would have these two executed if caught. As there are so many on here who don’t believe in such harsh punishments, what would you think is an apt punishment???

In some countries these two would be executed.

Believe it or not but in some countries the girl would be executed. It happened a few weeks back in Afghanistan and its happened many times before that one to.

Truthiness said :

Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

Don’t you dare.

These ‘young men’ have failed our society. Don’t ever forget that.

Obviously the part of me that feels for her and the family would like to see these thugs shot and drowned. The sane part of course knows about the delicate balancing act of punishment/rehabilitation and recidivism. But there is no part of me that feels I nor society must bare any of the blame.

An apt punishment would be psychological rehabilitation, our priority should be stopping it from happening again, putting them in jail is likely to further destabilise them, leading to an increased chance of reoffense.

The whole notion that you can scare people out of committing crime through harsh sentencing is bogus. People do bad things like this without even considering the repercussions, it would make no difference if the punishment were prison or death, they don’t think about it.

Clearly these are confused and disturbed young men, products of a confused and disturbed society. This horrible act was like a cry for help, it is deeply saddening that these issues were not caught and treated earlier. Our society has failed these young men, and this poor girl has paid the price of our failure.

Enacting harsh vengeance upon them may feel right, but it will not make them better people, it will probably make them worse.

Apt punishment that reflects the seriousness of the crime but is humane but also acts as a deterrent to others.

How about minimum non parole period of a decade and hard labour to pay their food and board.

farnarkler said :

I would have these two executed if caught. As there are so many on here who don’t believe in such harsh punishments, what would you think is an apt punishment???

In some countries these two would be executed.

I don’t want to make light of this crime…but they can’t have gotten away too quickly with all the “speed cushions” along the road to “make the street safer”.

OK, back to the comments about the punishments they should receive.

I would have these two executed if caught. As there are so many on here who don’t believe in such harsh punishments, what would you think is an apt punishment???

c_c said :

arescarti42 said :

The thing I find astounding is that it happened in broad daylight on a suburban street. These sorts of assaults usually only happen to drunk people walking home through Haig Park in the dead of night.

Not at all astonishing, daylight and even the presence of others looking on has long ceased to discourage thugs.

People generally aren’t willing to intervene, can ignore just about anything and this is what thugs now rely on. Just a shame dog-man can’t be in more places.

Have we really dropped this low?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

c_c said :

Not at all astonishing, daylight and even the presence of others looking on has long ceased to discourage thugs.

They won’t get much of a penalty anyway.

c_c said :

arescarti42 said :

The thing I find astounding is that it happened in broad daylight on a suburban street. These sorts of assaults usually only happen to drunk people walking home through Haig Park in the dead of night.

Not at all astonishing, daylight and even the presence of others looking on has long ceased to discourage thugs.

People generally aren’t willing to intervene, can ignore just about anything and this is what thugs now rely on. Just a shame dog-man can’t be in more places.

Also, holt

arescarti42 said :

The thing I find astounding is that it happened in broad daylight on a suburban street. These sorts of assaults usually only happen to drunk people walking home through Haig Park in the dead of night.

Not at all astonishing, daylight and even the presence of others looking on has long ceased to discourage thugs.

People generally aren’t willing to intervene, can ignore just about anything and this is what thugs now rely on. Just a shame dog-man can’t be in more places.

The thing I find astounding is that it happened in broad daylight on a suburban street. These sorts of assaults usually only happen to drunk people walking home through Haig Park in the dead of night.

p1 said :

This makes me so angry.

Whenever I hear about some completely innocent 20 something male being severely beaten or killed in some totally unprovoked attacked, I wonder if it was revenge for something like this.

Beyond angry, I will be keeping an eye out for the car and those “blokes”.

That poor girl. I can’t imagine how awful that would have been. I hope these “men” are caught and suitably punished.

This makes me so angry.

Whenever I hear about some completely innocent 20 something male being severely beaten or killed in some totally unprovoked attacked, I wonder if it was revenge for something like this.

Animalistic behaviour is clearly still alive and well.Once again i feel the need to reiterate that there are some who have no ‘fear of consequence’.Lenient sentencing has only consolidated that mindset.

This is why when my daughters are old enough they will be armed.

Filthy scumbags. Hopefully they are caught quickly.

Let me guess, they did the Harold…