Keep a rail corridor into Civic

The 250 million to build Majura Parkway would cover easily the cost of
one light rail route, and rolling stock.

Not supported by any facts, just fanciful thinking.

If [I emphasis if] there is a return on investment of 2 to 1 to build a
single light rail route to lets say Gungahlin, why is not the private
sector falling over themselves lobbying the government to build the thing?
[hears crickets chirping in the stillness]. I think the true story is that the
Government has had another look at the figures.

The Majura Parkway would still need to be built for an extra $250 million.
Not only would it help Gungahlinites get to Snow Town in the morning, it
helps with the freight transport issues and is the first link in
developing the Majura Valley for light industrial uses.

I am certain that the GCC is 100% behind the Majura Parkway just as they were 100% behind the GDE. Or are they?

@Mr PC: What a guided busway? LOL It’s called O-Bahn and would be a very good option for that corridor.

Re Queanbeyan to Kingston, IMHO they should build a one lane road for buses only between those two locations via the rail alignment. The buses in peak hour peak direction can use it, and anyone who was going to get off along the current bus route can just proceed to the end of the busway and get the next bus back to their actual destination in the counter-peak direction.

The rail alignment is more than wide enough to allow for a single lane busway without needing to remove the current main line. They may need to rearrange some of the sidings, but that’s about all.

Suddenly those who travel from Queanbeyan into Canberra in peak hour and back in the evening can get a very fast run, regardless of traffic conditions in Manuka/Fyshwick. The buses can do their little lap of Queanbeyan and run all the way into Civic, as they already do.

While I normally don’t feel the need to preserve the single seat ride at all costs like certain public transport advocates, this is one situation where single seat would be appropriate. You have a city at one end with cheap housing but ample local facilities, and a city at the other end with employment and educational institutions, and there’s plenty of peak hour peak direction travel but not much of anything else. A tidal flow bus lane would be a cheap and effective solution to improve the effectiveness of the existing buses and allow for more to be run since the sooner the bus reaches Civic in the morning, the sooner it can hightail it out to Queanbeyan and pick up another load of passengers.

CSIRO contradicted Stanhope very smartly in the Canberra Times this morning …

Reply

And – what about running a little QBN Canberra train through peak hour? That might take some pressure off Canberra Ave.

Get a bus to meet them in Kingston to drop off in Barton and Civic, charge $4 each way, and I reckon you’d be onto a winner. There’d probably be time to do 3-4 runs each morning, and Queanbeyanites could park for free at the Qbn train station and surroundings.

Build a platform near Tharwa Dr / Thompsitt Dr and you could run it Jerrabomberra – Qbn – Kingston even.

I’ll buy shares if you put a business plan together 😉

I’m not suggesting that private sector organisations would want to build rail to replace their use of roads, but rather to sell the use of such rail to others, through selling tickets to humans and freight services to other companies for the purpose of generating a profit. That is, invest to build the rail service, then charge for its use to make money going forward.

Sure, but currently if they did that, they’d be competing against the Government who gives away a freight infrastructure service (the road network) essentially for free. Competing against free isn’t too attractive. I note that no-one’s planning to build a private interstate road network, either.

I don’t personally know whether, in a totally free market, a rail or road network would win out – but it’s doubtful that we’re going to ever find out, because the market isn’t ever going to be free. The Government is picking winners when it decides how much of the transport budget to spend on each method of transport (and that’s probably entirely appropriate in this particular sector), which is highly distorting to the decisions that private firms are making in the sector. It’s just that when the Government picks a winner, you lose any information on what should have been the winner.

I do note that in places where the road network isn’t sufficiently subsidised (eg. the Pilbara), private firms have indeed chosen to build private freight railways. This suggests that at least sometimes, rail can be more economically efficient than road.

My 1923 map of Canberra shows a proposed railway loop from Goulburn to Yass via Canberra passing through about the same place as the Flynn Primary School. Hey! Was that the reason for closing the school? It would make a damn fine station!

The negotiations setting up the capital territory included a guarantee that NSW would build this link to enable complementary direct access to Melbourne as well as Sydney – conveniently forgotten when war and depression were uppermost in government mind.

sepi said :

ANd – what about running a little QBN Canberra train through peak hour? That might take some pressure off Canberra Ave.

Get a bus to meet them in Kingston to drop off in Barton and Civic, charge $4 each way, and I reckon you’d be onto a winner. There’d probably be time to do 3-4 runs each morning, and Queanbeyanites could park for free at the Qbn train station and surroundings.

Trevar plenty of people catch trains and trams to work in bigger cities – not just the plebs. As Canberra grows it makes sense to expand public transport, not shrink it like our lot have done. And especially to plan for the future and keep rail corridors.

Danman – oops – how could I forget the train to Melb goes via lovely Yass Junction – many a freezing night out there waiting for the 11pm to Melbourne – yuck. I used to catch the Sydney train a lot too, before they cut the timetable back to once a day at a bad time.

And the talk of scenic tourist trains says it all for me – people like trains. They go out of their way to go on tourist trains. Noone ever goes on a tourist bus.

ANd – what about running a little QBN Canberra train through peak hour? That might take some pressure off Canberra Ave.

damien haas said :

caf nails it.

The 250 million to build Majura Parkway would cover easily the cost of one light rail route, and rolling stock.

And it would gave returned a profit.

I think we may be on different wavelengths here caf.

I’m not suggesting that private sector organisations would want to build rail to replace their use of roads, but rather to sell the use of such rail to others, through selling tickets to humans and freight services to other companies for the purpose of generating a profit. That is, invest to build the rail service, then charge for its use to make money going forward.

The point I was originally trying to make was that if there aren’t any private sector organisations that think they can build a rail network then run it profitably in the same manner as the govt would, then you can bet that the govt will have to subsidise it using funds from areas unrelated to the rail network users. This means that rail users would get convenience, but it would be at a cost others who don’t use the service.

Although there are many instances of subsidisation (is that even a word?) of government provided services, my opinion is that rail would cost so much to build and run that the number of people getting a benefit would not justify the $$ needed from the public purse. And every dollar spent by the government on something like this is a dollar less available for health, education and other critical services.

Ultimately, transport needs to be about balance. At this point, I don’t think anyone is proposing a solution that sensibly balances needs, desires, costs and environmental considerations. And that includes me. Until a solution that at least approximates the needed balance is found, I don’t think we should be comitting to massive projects.

caf nails it.

The 250 million to build Majura Parkway would cover easily the cost of one light rail route, and rolling stock.

Hmm? The point is that they get their roads 100% subsidised for them at the moment, so there’s absolutely no incentive to privately build 0% subsidised rail.

caf said :

If rail is such a good idea, why isn’t the private sector asking to build it?

Well, when the private sector get such good roads provided for them at no cost, why would they?

Because if they thought that rail infrastructure could be built and run at a profit, they wouldn’t be so concerned. Issue around cost offset for roads and compensating infrastructure could be calculated and shared between a private operator and government.

If rail is such a good idea, why isn’t the private sector asking to build it?

Well, when the private sector get such good roads provided for them at no cost, why would they?

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

If rail is such a good idea, why isn’t the private sector asking to build it?

Because the private sector doesn’t also have to pay the other expenses like road construction (Majura Parkway $250 million anyone? GDE other 2 lanes $90m, etc etc etc). But the ACT Gov’t does, and therefore would realise the benefits that would off-set the costs of construction.

And the PWC report overlooked a major source of additional benefit – increased land sale prices and rates revenue that would flow from having a PT route that some stupid gov’t could not rip the rug out from under, as happened with Action here a couple of years ago.

Throw that in and we have a situation where rather than asking how can the gov’t afford it, we should asking how can the giov’t afford NOT to do it? To not install light rail is the equivalent of throwing several billion $$ down the loo – the government’s own report says so. That report that Stanhope refuses to acknowledge. And the local media continues to not prosecute him on.

yellowsnow at #23 wrote

In actual fact tourist steam trains still operate on the Bredbo line down to Michelago last I heard, so at least parts of that line are still viable.

The only tourist trains on the route south of Queanbeyan run from Cooma to Chakola

http://www.cmrailway.org.au

The Queanbeyan to Michelago section closed after it was basically washed away in a storm in 2006-07. Volunteer labour isn’t quite enough to rebuild what was ruined, the hume log trains stopped, the tourist trains stopped, and ever since then, ARHS ACT tour trains mostly stick to Kingston-Fyshwick (yuck), Kingston-Queanbeyan (still not that thrilling) or Kingston-Bungendore (nice trip).

http://www.arhsact.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126&Itemid=34

MrPC at #19 wrote:

As for the line to Bredbo (#9 Danman), WTF? That line closed years ago. They used to run log trains out of Hume up until early this decade, but even that stopped when the line got washed away somewhere near Jerrabombera or Queanbeyan.

In actual fact tourist steam trains still operate on the Bredbo line down to Michelago last I heard, so at least parts of that line are still viable.

I used to live in Kingston right across the road from the train station, and caught the train to and from Sydney quite often. It was pretty convenient. A lot of people used it back then — until Countrylink started playing around with the timetable, and ACTION cut back on buses stopping at the station.

Relocating to Fyshwick or similar remote location would be another nail in the service’s coffin, unless they build it next to a mega brothel or adult store or fireworks shop (oh wait — can’t do that anymore), which would attract a lot of ‘niche’ tourists travelling by train from interstate to sample some of canberra’s nightime delights.

Funny, once Stanhope is finished with Canberra, Fyshwick may be the only suburb with any real character. Though once he realises this, no doubt he will also seek to destroy it by building more overpriced apartments.

If rail is such a good idea, why isn’t the private sector asking to build it?

Seems an uphill battle to take any form of public transport seriously, and while I’m not entirely averse to uphill battles, they need to be wisely selected.

I think it’s Nissan who are touting the first zero-emissions vehicle being released OS next year, so the technology is coming–albeit slowly–for ecologically sustainable private transport of a more practical nature.

Private transport is invariably more convenient and attractive to the individual than public transport, so I think it makes more sense to pour time, money and energy into making private transport sustainable, rather than making an effort to both (A) make public transport sustainable, and (B) make public transport convenient and attractive. To make private transport sustainable is only one uphill battle, whereas a viable and sustainable public transport system is two such battles. So with the goal of zero emissions being achievable in both scenarios, why not go with the one that has the greatest benefit and least resistance?

I certainly have no intention of using public transport on a regular basis in my lifetime, but I would happily buy a car that produces no emissions when they can sell me one that will take me to Perth and back, and that doesn’t cost a motza.

And so, farewell Kingston Railway. I will remember you fondly when I drive past in my zero-emissions car in a couple of decades.

The PWC report did not assess alternatives to light rail as stated in the Light Rail Fact sheet and clearly advised the government that there might be alternatives that were not only cheaper but gave better value for money.

ACTION only runs buses weekday peak hours to Fairbairn Park (plus the half hourly Airliner from Deanes which goes to Brindabella Park but not Fairbairn Park).

However, ACTION will definitely ramp up services out there once Kowen Plateau gets subdivided after they’ve finished with North Weston and Molonglo.

Maybe they can bring that forward. People desperately need cheap land for affordable housing. I have no problem if Kowen was deemed to be the cheap land in order to maintain the high values elsewhere that people have come to rely on. You sure aren’t going to find cheap housing in Kingston.

Subdivide Kowen Plateau next year and run buses out there straight away, and redo the rail service to run from Queanbeyan to Pialligo, with a view to extending it up to Gunghalin on its way to either Yass (if you want to keep the Bungendore route) or Gunning (if you want to ditch the Bungendore route and have trains from Sydney-Goulburn-Gunning-Canberra-Queanbeyan instead).

However, IMHO it’s more likely they will just keep the current useless alignment that takes two hours to get to Goulburn, and keep the station at Kingston, but will likely move the station somewhere less convenient, and build flats where the current station is and where the rail museum is. They’ll then move the museum to Oaks Estate where it can take over the sidings opposite Queanbeyan Station and also (what’s left of) the old main line where it heads under Canberra Avenue.

As for the line to Bredbo (#9 Danman), WTF? That line closed years ago. They used to run log trains out of Hume up until early this decade, but even that stopped when the line got washed away somewhere near Jerrabombera or Queanbeyan.

Gungahlin Al – I agree that Stanhope continues to mouth the ‘light rail doesn’t stack up’ mantra – even when his own commissioned proposal shows the opposite. The PWC light rail proposal to Infrastructure Australia showed two key things:

1 – light rail will bring a positive return on investment
2 – existing bus network is a drain on Canberras productivity

It irritates me that journos – print, TV and radio- never call him on this spin.

There is a severe public transport infrastructure deficit in Canberra. A pole with a tin ‘bus stop’ sign is not public transport infrastructure.

I say send the train station out to the Airport. Then have the Railway Museum out at Fairbairn Park. ACTION provides peak services from most interchanges to the Airport & there is a bus at least every 30-60 minutes. So that provides the morning/evening connection. Even is special buses run into Canberra & Queanbeyan when the trains arrive that would work all right.

Gunghalin Al, the issue is not about returns on investment, the issue is that the ACT goverment can not find the money or suckers to invest in light rail.

ACT Light Rail I am sure can tell you submitted something about saving the
corridor a couple of years ago.

The CSIRO released a future options paper on the rail yards in September 2007. Where is the final report? Where is the Rail Master plan? Back then CSIRO said that the rail station could move to Fyshwick but that the rail corridor should be reserved. I am all for saving the corridor for public transit use. Let the Greens
and Liberals block the idea.

I guess, that the railway museum out there be amply compensated and have a
site where they can build a new depot. Suggest that they build over Oaks
Estate as only the poor live there and do not fit in well with Stanhopes
Ceasescu dream (and we all know what happened to ‘ol Nicolae don’t we!)

Frankly, unless Stanhope is sucking on the Snows, the enviromentally sustainable option for travel is to reserve a high speed train corridor. don’t see it happening through Civic as WBG had wanted, but up through Majura Valley. Thus the new train station should be built near the airport.

Great, way to mortgage Canberra’s future even further Stanhope. Political leadership sure is non existent in this town.

Gungahlin Al for Chief Minister I say.

As much as I love all things train, what rail corridor would be preserved, exactly? While it’s all nice and well to say SAVE THE TRAINS, there’s not really much to save at the moment. The Kingston terminus is a dead end, a throwback to when the rail line was used to deliver goods to Eastlake, like Danman says at #9.

If there were to be future funtimes with any form of Canberra rail (HS or light rail), it wouldn’t save anyone any time or money by using the current Kingston tracks. There’s not really anywhere a rail extension could go from there – it’s surrounded by apartments, wetlands and the lake.

Just hope they keep the museum where it is though.

Canberra isn’t going anywhere, Stanhope hasn’t sold it. Yet.

If we get high speed to Canberra they won’t use the line into Kingston. Now if this proposal is just the sidings then what’s the issue? They are under utilised as it is. Just hope they keep the museum where it is though.

Uhh Sepi, I believe (Happy to be corrected) that Canberras Only rail connection to Melbourne is via Yass train station. Not sure where Kingston goes besides the usual suspects i.e Bungendore, Sydney etc.

Does it do the Bredbo line ?

In any case, few people know that Kingston lines used to extend from Kingston to the back of the Powerstation in Kingston and on to the Yarralumla Brickworks.

In fact I am pretty sure that the powerstation was made with local Yarralumla bricks.

If you exit the Kingston Markets to the rear carpark, you can see some inlaid “Rails” in the new footpath that symbolise this long forgotten line.

Tearing down the shunting yards and moving the station more easterly is just yet another money grab for valuable real estate. What next… Just make the whole area yuppie shoeboxes, be honest and get it done.

Do not insult the intelligence of Canberrans by trying to veil your intentions with thinly disguised studies.

While just about every ‘sustainable’ development plan in the world these days encorporates public transport infrastructure, such as rail, Stanhope proposes to demolish it and send it even further out to Fyshwick or QBN. If they ever wanted to make make people LESS reliant on cars and use rail this has got to be the worst idea they could propose. What about frieght into Canberra? Will now have to rely solely on trucks, increasing traffic, pollution, carbon footprint….. What is ACTPLA & CSIRO thinking – oh, thats right, we don’t know because its not been released yet (how misinformed of me!)?

I lived in Washington DC for three years and travelled every day on the Metro – what a great system! Not without its occasional problems, but there was no need for a car!

I say build a link underground to Civic and allow people the option of a train journey (on a decent timetable) or bus and I know what I would choose, even if it is more expensive! Sure, we don’t have the same population levels, but add together the population mass of the whole South East Australian corridor and you’ve got a huge number of people needing a better mass transport system than what we’ve got.

I listened to Stanhope this morning on the radio & he basically confirmed its all about selling the prime real estate Kingston station is sitting on. Thats the bottom line.

Bet you don’t catch the airport complaining about this…

Hopefully not off-topic, but apparently, if trains were ever removed from Canberra, it will be the only national capital city in the English-speaking OECD without a train service. Forget car-dominance in LA, think Canberra!

Keep it to allow Light Rail – the poor man’s bicycle.

As long as you have enough people to support it. Come back when we have 4+ million people here…

I agree that rail should not be moved from where it is, however, having the station at Kingston is no more difficult than having the airport at Pialligo, in fact, more convenient at Kingston because of more frequent buses and access to facilities such as hotels/motels and shops. Anyway, any argument should keep heavy-rail and light-rail separate as I believe they are mutually exclusive. Heavy-rail is not an option for Canberra, light-rail may be in the future. High-speed Heavy-rail, if it ever becomes reality, should not go any where near Civic but instead skirt around it (say come in and diverge from Queanbeyan through to the airport and up along a new Majura Rd corridor and head off towards Yass and Melbourne). Logistically, heavy-rail and moreso high-speed heavey-rail need their own right-of-way with bridges and interchanges etc or go underground and that is just not feasible for us 340,000-odd citizens to fund that. Also, keep in mind heavy-rail did once go to Civic before the lake and before floods washed away the causeway over the river. The causeway was, clearly, never rebuilt.

Jon Stanhope also claimed this morning that all their studies to date say light rail doesn’t stack up. Not true. The PWC cost/benefit report said it would save/make the ACT an absolute motza – and that didn’t include increased land prices and rates…

I can understand them wanting to wind back the shunting yards, but please keep a two-way corridor open.
Governments around Australia are spending trainloads trying to buy back rail corridors. Can’t our government here for once learn from past mistakes?

It’s a money-grab. He doesn’t care about rail of any kind.

this is an unbelievably stupid idea.

Demolishing Canberra’s train connection to Melbourne and Sydney could well end up being Stanhope’s legacy, rather than the arboretum he so fondly imagines.

CT article states that passengers to Sydney have increased recently. this is amazing in the face of rail timetable cuts, and shows a real demand for the trains.

Bring back the railways!!!