Transport for Canberra announced.

creative_canberran said :

The funny thing is despite the reality of Canberra, proponents still keep pointing to Beijing, Tokyo, London, Paris and New York.

I suppose it should come as no surprise, if proponents can’t do a simple cost benefit calculation on the $1billion dollar white whale of light rail, how can they be expected to do the sums on how many people actually live in a city.

Cute theory. Problem is, innumerable European cities of a size comparable to Canberra have well-developed public transport. Think systems using a combination of bike, bus, tram and rail infrastructure.

Self evidently, no one will use public transport unless there is a decent system in place. If the political will and the dollars can be found, of course Canberra can follow the lead of these cities.

Canberra’s utility and its lifestyle will suffer until this happens.

zippyzippy said :

I’m not going to lay out here the entire process for building an effective public transport network (I will say though that transfers can work really well when they’re done right). You can easily find out about it yourself by doing some reading, or looking at other cities. That should also be enough to show you that it’s not a ‘dream world’ to have quality public transport. Maybe you only think it’s a ‘dream world’ because you have a particularly insular view. What – does public transport work nowhere in the world? Do people everywhere always insist on driving a car no matter what? Nope. Where a city puts in the right effort, public transport can work brilliantly. You’re being insistently negative if you want to argue PT can never work for a city like Canberra. So many things to be done. I’m sure the decent people will keep trying to make that happen. No more comments from me. Good luck with it all.

A total joke. When questioned, tell someone to find the answer elsewhere. When challenged, say it works elsewhere. Anything but actually giving an answer.

Public transport works in heaps of places… with high density, large populations.

Canberra has neither, in fact with massive growth in commercial and government offices in Gunghalin and Tuggeranong, where not even all piling into Civic anymore.

The funny thing is despite the reality of Canberra, proponents still keep pointing to Beijing, Tokyo, London, Paris and New York.
I suppose it should come as no surprise, if proponents can’t do a simple cost benefit calculation on the $1billion dollar white whale of light rail, how can they be expected to do the sums on how many people actually live in a city.

Also neither Sydney nor Melbourne tend to get mentioned by proponents, perhaps because despite considerably larger populations, longer development and more funds and resources, both still have significant public transport problems.

creative_canberran said :

zippyzippy said :

What a ridiculous assessment. First, no-one expects anyone to go and catch three buses and take two hours to get somewhere. The argument is that there should be frequent, fast services. Then people will use them.

Secondly, as more people use them, those services become less expensive; you need to put some effort in to actually get them patronized though.snort of a chicken and egg thing going on, and Canberra is still in the stage where we have crap service so hardly anyone uses it.

Thirdly, all public transport has to be subsidized to some extent, it’s part of the pay off for the overall benefits that having a good public transport system brings to the city. Canberrans are just like anyone else; bring a good transport system to us and we’ll use it.

Also, nightrider only ran for a short time with little chance for people to learn about it. I first heard about it after it finished! These things need some time. If, after one month, you go ‘oh no, it’s costing money, let’s cancel it!’, we’ll never ever get anywhere.

No sense of reality, just existing in a complete dream world.
Let’s debunk them one by one shall we:

zippyzippy said :

First, no-one expects anyone to go and catch three buses and take two hours to get somewhere. The argument is that there should be frequent, fast services. Then people will use them.

So basically run a huge bus network where busses go from everywhere to everywhere in order to avoid transfers?
Oh, and because the buses go everywhere, they either take very long, comprehensive routes that take a long time or more busses go on more targeted routes but carry one or two passengers.
How would you suggest it works? Proponents always make these broad statements about “frequent” and “fast” services but they never provide the substance.
In fact I’m willing to bet a subsidies car service would be better value.

zippyzippy said :

all public transport has to be subsidized to some extent, it’s part of the pay off for the overall benefits that having a good public transport system brings to the city. Canberrans are just like anyone else; bring a good transport system to us and we’ll use it.

And here comes the socialist style spin of public transport. We all pay for the greater good… even if less than 10% of us use it. How about putting the money into schools, hospitals and roads that 90% of us use?

zippyzippy said :

Also, nightrider only ran for a short time with little chance for people to learn about it. I first heard about it after it finished! These things need some time. If, after one month, you go ‘oh no, it’s costing money, let’s cancel it!’, we’ll never ever get anywhere.

Always have an excuse but never have an answer for making it work seems to be the only thing proponents can do.
If you first heard about it after it finished then you must be dumb or living in a cocoon. Their were ads in all media, posters and announcements in the news. If you missed all that, then it says more about public transport proponents than anything else.

I’m not going to lay out here the entire process for building an effective public transport network (I will say though that transfers can work really well when they’re done right). You can easily find out about it yourself by doing some reading, or looking at other cities. That should also be enough to show you that it’s not a ‘dream world’ to have quality public transport. Maybe you only think it’s a ‘dream world’ because you have a particularly insular view. What – does public transport work nowhere in the world? Do people everywhere always insist on driving a car no matter what? Nope. Where a city puts in the right effort, public transport can work brilliantly. You’re being insistently negative if you want to argue PT can never work for a city like Canberra. So many things to be done. I’m sure the decent people will keep trying to make that happen. No more comments from me. Good luck with it all.

Buses are fine if you want to go between major town centres, or are fortunate enough to be able to catch a bus that goes in the direction you want, but once you start doing transfers the time taken just blows out so much that it isn’t worth it any more.

Public transport also doesn’t solve the issue of people who have to drop off or pick up kids from school or care.

That said, I think there’d be more take up if there were more viable park and ride arrangements.

This ill-thought-out and inadequate document makes no mention of the biggest public transport issue for workers in Canberra: parents with children who need to be dropped to daycare and early school, or who have disabled children but aren’t eligible for a disabled carpark themselves at their place of work. Put yourself in the shoes of a parent who works in Parkes/Barton and can drop their kids from, say, 8.00 am (that’s setting the kids up for a 10-hour day, which is not ideal). This transport plan is setting parents up for four hours a day in transport: drive kids to daycare, drop them off, take the car to somewhere they can park all day, walk to a bus, take the bus to work by 9.00 (subject to frowns from childless colleagues). And in reverse at the end of the day: leave at 4.30 (again, to the odd frown), walk to the bus, wait for bus, take bus, walk to car, take car to daycare, pick up kid by 5.45 if you’re lucky. Not a family-friendly government.

creative_canberran said :

That argument is such a cop out, it’s the common Greens fall back position, to say that you’re freeing up x number of meters of road by getting people on buses.
And it is true… in peak hour when you can cram buses to capacity.

Driving up Drakeford though in the middle of the day seeing a 50+ seat bus carrying one or two people though into the suburbs… the logic falls down.
And even where demand should be high like Saturday nights, the Nightrider system proved a horrible waste. We were paying more per passenger than had we just gotten those people a taxi.

Honestly, hundreds of millions on these projects just so a minority can feel like their eco warriors. Doesn’t work.

I’m not just talking about buses, here’s another maths problem for the ACT government to consider, from the 2011-12 CAPITAL WORKS PROGRAM document (2011-12 Budget Paper No. 3) funding for cycle path infrastructure is $1.5 million for 2011-12 with nothing else allocated for other years, while ongoing funding for the Majura Parkway is $144 million, the John Gorton Drive Extension $34 million and the Horse Park Drive Extension $24 million.

This is supposedly the budget of a government that has an “active transport plan” which supposedly means giving active transport priority over motorized transport, not when it comes to the budget apparently.

Now I’m sure you there is not enough demand for cycling pedestrian infrastructure, but the $1.5 million is for projects (of which there are many more than $1.5 million worth) identified from the community consultation paper.

zippyzippy said :

What a ridiculous assessment. First, no-one expects anyone to go and catch three buses and take two hours to get somewhere. The argument is that there should be frequent, fast services. Then people will use them.

Secondly, as more people use them, those services become less expensive; you need to put some effort in to actually get them patronized though.snort of a chicken and egg thing going on, and Canberra is still in the stage where we have crap service so hardly anyone uses it.

Thirdly, all public transport has to be subsidized to some extent, it’s part of the pay off for the overall benefits that having a good public transport system brings to the city. Canberrans are just like anyone else; bring a good transport system to us and we’ll use it.

Also, nightrider only ran for a short time with little chance for people to learn about it. I first heard about it after it finished! These things need some time. If, after one month, you go ‘oh no, it’s costing money, let’s cancel it!’, we’ll never ever get anywhere.

No sense of reality, just existing in a complete dream world.
Let’s debunk them one by one shall we:

zippyzippy said :

First, no-one expects anyone to go and catch three buses and take two hours to get somewhere. The argument is that there should be frequent, fast services. Then people will use them.

So basically run a huge bus network where busses go from everywhere to everywhere in order to avoid transfers?
Oh, and because the buses go everywhere, they either take very long, comprehensive routes that take a long time or more busses go on more targeted routes but carry one or two passengers.
How would you suggest it works? Proponents always make these broad statements about “frequent” and “fast” services but they never provide the substance.
In fact I’m willing to bet a subsidies car service would be better value.

zippyzippy said :

all public transport has to be subsidized to some extent, it’s part of the pay off for the overall benefits that having a good public transport system brings to the city. Canberrans are just like anyone else; bring a good transport system to us and we’ll use it.

And here comes the socialist style spin of public transport. We all pay for the greater good… even if less than 10% of us use it. How about putting the money into schools, hospitals and roads that 90% of us use?

zippyzippy said :

Also, nightrider only ran for a short time with little chance for people to learn about it. I first heard about it after it finished! These things need some time. If, after one month, you go ‘oh no, it’s costing money, let’s cancel it!’, we’ll never ever get anywhere.

Always have an excuse but never have an answer for making it work seems to be the only thing proponents can do.
If you first heard about it after it finished then you must be dumb or living in a cocoon. Their were ads in all media, posters and announcements in the news. If you missed all that, then it says more about public transport proponents than anything else.

creative_canberran said :

thy_dungeonman said :

creative_canberran said :

thy_dungeonman said :

creative_canberran said :

trevar said :

What great timing! 2012 is just around the corner, and this is the perfect way to celebrate the Centenary of the First Suggestion that Canberra Might Benefit from a Light Rail System!

Take light rail and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. Cars rule, live with it.

What a great summation of the ACT Government’s attitude to transport

And that attitude is largely because the government can do maths.

South Canberra to North Canberra, off peak: 3 buses, 2hrs, 600m of walking – one way. http://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=Bonython,+Australian+Capital+Territory&daddr=Gunghalin+Concrete+Services,+Mitchell,+Australian+Capital+Territory&hl=en&sll=-35.335853,149.104385&sspn=0.466605,0.810242&geocode=FRdZ4_0dRNHiCCk1t7RQnMoXazEwWmmnbuoABQ%3BFQKo5v0dCrjjCCEkRLcdk1J8fg&vpsrc=0&dirflg=r&ttype=dep&date=10%2F10%2F11&time=10:00&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=h&z=12&start=0

Or in a car: one vehicle, comfortable, coffee allowed and it takes 20-30mins to cover the same distance.

Pity they can’t apply maths to the problem of space used by a bus versus space used by the same amount of people with each in a car.

That argument is such a cop out, it’s the common Greens fall back position, to say that you’re freeing up x number of meters of road by getting people on buses.
And it is true… in peak hour when you can cram buses to capacity.

Driving up Drakeford though in the middle of the day seeing a 50+ seat bus carrying one or two people though into the suburbs… the logic falls down.
And even where demand should be high like Saturday nights, the Nightrider system proved a horrible waste. We were paying more per passenger than had we just gotten those people a taxi.

Honestly, hundreds of millions on these projects just so a minority can feel like their eco warriors. Doesn’t work.

What a ridiculous assessment. First, no-one expects anyone to go and catch three buses and take two hours to get somewhere. The argument is that there should be frequent, fast services. Then people will use them.

Secondly, as more people use them, those services become less expensive; you need to put some effort in to actually get them patronized though.snort of a chicken and egg thing going on, and Canberra is still in the stage where we have crap service so hardly anyone uses it.

Thirdly, all public transport has to be subsidized to some extent, it’s part of the pay off for the overall benefits that having a good public transport system brings to the city. Canberrans are just like anyone else; bring a good transport system to us and we’ll use it.

Also, nightrider only ran for a short time with little chance for people to learn about it. I first heard about it after it finished! These things need some time. If, after one month, you go ‘oh no, it’s costing money, let’s cancel it!’, we’ll never ever get anywhere.

thy_dungeonman said :

creative_canberran said :

thy_dungeonman said :

creative_canberran said :

trevar said :

What great timing! 2012 is just around the corner, and this is the perfect way to celebrate the Centenary of the First Suggestion that Canberra Might Benefit from a Light Rail System!

Take light rail and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. Cars rule, live with it.

What a great summation of the ACT Government’s attitude to transport

And that attitude is largely because the government can do maths.

South Canberra to North Canberra, off peak: 3 buses, 2hrs, 600m of walking – one way. http://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=Bonython,+Australian+Capital+Territory&daddr=Gunghalin+Concrete+Services,+Mitchell,+Australian+Capital+Territory&hl=en&sll=-35.335853,149.104385&sspn=0.466605,0.810242&geocode=FRdZ4_0dRNHiCCk1t7RQnMoXazEwWmmnbuoABQ%3BFQKo5v0dCrjjCCEkRLcdk1J8fg&vpsrc=0&dirflg=r&ttype=dep&date=10%2F10%2F11&time=10:00&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=h&z=12&start=0

Or in a car: one vehicle, comfortable, coffee allowed and it takes 20-30mins to cover the same distance.

Pity they can’t apply maths to the problem of space used by a bus versus space used by the same amount of people with each in a car.

That argument is such a cop out, it’s the common Greens fall back position, to say that you’re freeing up x number of meters of road by getting people on buses.
And it is true… in peak hour when you can cram buses to capacity.

Driving up Drakeford though in the middle of the day seeing a 50+ seat bus carrying one or two people though into the suburbs… the logic falls down.
And even where demand should be high like Saturday nights, the Nightrider system proved a horrible waste. We were paying more per passenger than had we just gotten those people a taxi.

Honestly, hundreds of millions on these projects just so a minority can feel like their eco warriors. Doesn’t work.

creative_canberran said :

thy_dungeonman said :

creative_canberran said :

trevar said :

What great timing! 2012 is just around the corner, and this is the perfect way to celebrate the Centenary of the First Suggestion that Canberra Might Benefit from a Light Rail System!

Take light rail and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. Cars rule, live with it.

What a great summation of the ACT Government’s attitude to transport

And that attitude is largely because the government can do maths.

South Canberra to North Canberra, off peak: 3 buses, 2hrs, 600m of walking – one way. http://maps.google.com.au/maps?saddr=Bonython,+Australian+Capital+Territory&daddr=Gunghalin+Concrete+Services,+Mitchell,+Australian+Capital+Territory&hl=en&sll=-35.335853,149.104385&sspn=0.466605,0.810242&geocode=FRdZ4_0dRNHiCCk1t7RQnMoXazEwWmmnbuoABQ%3BFQKo5v0dCrjjCCEkRLcdk1J8fg&vpsrc=0&dirflg=r&ttype=dep&date=10%2F10%2F11&time=10:00&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=h&z=12&start=0

Or in a car: one vehicle, comfortable, coffee allowed and it takes 20-30mins to cover the same distance.

Pity they can’t apply maths to the problem of space used by a bus versus space used by the same amount of people with each in a car.