30 May 2025

Treasurer faces tax test to advance Australia fair

| By Ian Bushnell
Join the conversation
148
Jim Chalmers, Treasurer of Australia

Treasurer Jim Chalmers will need to look for more revenue as spending pressures mount. Photo: Michelle Kroll.

The election has only piled on more pressure for the Albanese Government to deliver on a range of issues, and that will require money.

So, where will that come from?

Without relying on the vagaries of the iron ore price, the government could cut spending in some areas and divert funding to others, but if the proposed super tax changes are anything to go by, Treasurer Jim Chalmers will embark on finally reforming a tax system that inordinately favours the old and well-off and disadvantages the young, who are staring at being locked out of the housing market and a future of declining living standards.

Super was never meant to be a tax shelter for farms, properties and businesses, or a tax-discounted way to entrench inherited wealth. The $3 million threshold is more than generous and only 0.5 per cent of super account holders, or 80,000 people, will be affected.

The move to tax unrealised gains or paper profits stems from people quarantining assets in super funds.

While the usual hysteria is being whipped by the wealth industry and the usual news outlets about the proposed super changes, Labor should remember it was that cohort of Gen Z and Millennials who delivered them big swings across the country.

And they want the generational inequity that John Howard and Peter Costello built into the system dismantled.

READ ALSO North West Shelf gas approval ‘cements a legacy of climate harm for generations’: Pocock

That opens the way for Labor to revisit the 2019 platform, to pull back those concessions, such as negative gearing and capital gains tax discounts, which voters rejected after a ferocious scare campaign.

Labor has assiduously kept that political poison in the cupboard, but closing tax concessions that continue to cost the budget and distort a property market that alienates Australia’s younger generations should be rehabilitated.

Post-COVID 2025 is a different country from Scott Morrison’s Australia of six years ago, with a greater appreciation of public services and a persistent housing crisis.

If Labor, returned with a thumping majority, won’t tackle tax reform now, when will it?

Finding new revenues will also be necessary, as spending demands are growing across portfolios.

CBA chief economist Luke Yeaman told a Property Council lunch on Thursday (29 May) that there would be pressure to spend more on defence (and not just AUKUS), health and the NDIS, and if the government could not make headway on its housing targets, then it would come under significant political pressure at the next election.

“Communities expect those services, so I don’t think we’re in a world of really sharp fiscal consolidation,” he said.

“I think we’re in a world of cost containment, just trying to manage the growth rather than actually pulling back hard, and I think there will be discussion about tax across all the governments, as well as about how you actually fund those new priorities to keep the budget condition stronger.”

Mr Yeaman said housing, in particular, was a hot-button issue that voters cared about.

“There’s an intergenerational equity perspective to this. Young voters are very much looking to break into the market,” he said.

READ ALSO Coalition leaders taking flak over firing talent from the front bench

The other issue that young voters care about is global heating and climate change through the burning of fossil fuels.

Many will be angered at this week’s decision to give Woodside the green light to extend the life of its North West Shelf gas field ‘carbon bomb’ to 2070.

The trade-off should be that if were are going to do this, then this one-off extraction that will add to the world’s carbon load, climate change and other impacts should be taxed more to fund mitigation, pay for the energy transition, boost revenues and, like Norway, establish a sovereign wealth fund, separate from the Future Fund.

There have been calls for years to reform the Petroleum Resource Rent Tax so it can do just this. Other countries have done it without companies bailing, so why not Australia?

Labor faces a test that it failed under Kevin Rudd, and one that a nation supposedly founded on fairness needs to meet.

Like then, and during the 2019 election campaign, it will face high-pitched squeals from the ‘losers’ who will still be well-off and still enrich their companies and shareholders, just not as much.

But again, if not now, when? Clawing back a more equal society and the public good will take time, so it’s best to make a start.

Free Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? We package the most-read Canberra stories and send them to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.
Loading
By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.

Join the conversation

148
All Comments
  • All Comments
  • Website Comments
LatestOldest
Sterling Stillwater4:30 pm 03 Jun 25

I follow up my earlier post by considering a person who starts at the threshold, $3M, and through sound investment in risk assets earns a pretty normal market rate of 10%. Their Super Fund goes up by $300,000, a profit nearly double what half of men have in Super at all

They will have a Div 296 tax liability of $4091.

That is less than 1.4% (one point four percent) of the $300,000 they gained, leaving them with a measly $296,000 added that year after Div 296. And at the same earning rate nearly as much more the next year, and the next.

Still the mindless greed spills out.

Success is such a sin isn’t it.

@Sterling Stillwater
I see none of the antagonists, on here, have countered your excellent two-day old post below, Sterling S, so I doubt you will get any cogent response to this, equally well articulated, post.

JS – It’s hardly rocket science logic that progressive tax is a disincentive to work harder. He’s some really simple examples for you to follow in nice plain English.

And note how they hurt poorer people.

https://thedailyeconomy.org/article/why-progressive-taxes-are-especially-harmful-to-productivity-and-harm-the-poor/

It is hardly boiling an egg to see that Penfold finds no evidence but offers libertarian fantasies anyway.

Take your flat tax back to your flat earth, Penfold.

If you click above there’s lots of evidence. Try the underlined part which starts with “https”.

Above means ⏫️ that way. 👀🤣

@Penfold
Actually, Penfold, you seem to want to make it rocket science.

For starters, the American article you cite has a ridiculous premise:
“Perhaps the tax rate applied on Alex’s extra hours was 75 percent.”
As you should be be aware, the highest marginal PAYG rate in Australia is 45%, and in the US it’s even lower at 37%.

So, your “really simple examples”, far from being evidence, are a concoction of the journalist’s ideological fantasy – which, certainly is in keeping with the level of cogency you usually bring to an argument.

Here’s an even easier concept for you. In the real world, how many people have knocked back a pay rise, because they would pay more marginal tax?

Well JS you’ve completely missed the point again on two fronts:

1. The 75% is an example to compare against lowerer rates. But it’s gone straight through to the keeper obviously.

2. It’s not about a pay rise, it’s about putting in more hours. Remember your comment to Incidental Tourist was “progressive tax has been proven to cause a loss of productivity – where did you get this tripe from”.

Well what you sanctimoniously describe as “tripe” has been proven true many times. People choose to work less than otherwise. Again, real world facts. Feel free to join us sometime.

Penfold, unlike you I read and understand what is being said. In this case, libertarian fantasies with no evidence.

Nothing is proven by starting from a false position as you do.

Meanwhile, the Liberal party shadow treasurer has stated that they are open to progressive taxation of amounts above $3M in Super. Talk to them.

@Penfold
Funny how your bang on about real world facts, Penfold, and provide a fantasy world example of 75%.

Yes – and I sytandby the comment that it was tripe.

Speaking of real world facts, I’d be happy to join you, if you can actually provide some facts – not hypothetical musings from a US journalist.

Well you’re very consistent JS, rejecting any evidence you don’t agree with the wave of a magic wand. Yet providing nothing of any substance to counter it.

Hey are you aware that in a progressive tax system those who earn more pay more tax ? In Australia the top 10% of wage earners pay 50% of income tax. Doesn’t seem very fair does it.

@Penfold
LMAO (that’s laughing my a**e off, so you don’t have to look it up) at your ridiculous claim about evidence. What evidence, Penfold? The hypothetical musings from a US journalist is not evidence – no wand needed to wave that off.

I’m still waiting for that evidence by the way.

As for the spread of tax payers. Well, given that 90% of Australians earn under $131,500 pa, it’s not surprising that they only pay 50% of the total bill.

Begs the question, what if the top 10% paid tax on their true income, rather than what they can’t hide, how much more revenue would be generated?

Ahh the conspiracy theory JS. If you don’t understand it, it can’t be true …. Evidence – click the link.

And now what’s your latest theory – that the top 10% cheat on their tax. Any evidence ? Lol. Now of course you won’t believe this but as someone in that category i’m a very boring PAYG statement, a few donations and that’s it. No wfh deductions, no other deductions, no negative gearing.

I love the use of your word “they”, those nasty successful people who earn good money. Mainly through hard work, an education and a desire to succeed. As you’re clearly not a “they” and as you’ve mentioned are a retiree, are you full pension or part pension ? Just curious.

Glad you’re laughing, at least we’ve got something in common.

@Penfold
As previously stated, Penfold, I clicked your link and found an opinion piece, wherein the author refers to a marginal tax rate of 75%, which has the mythical Alex considering the value of working that extra time for 25c in the dollar. A reasonable proposition but not evidence – as the actual evidence, is the fact that the highest marginal tax rate in the US, is 37% … less than half the rate proposed for the mythical Alex to ponder.

Where did I say that the top 10% cheat on their tax? Tax cheats have been jailed in the past.

Your circumstances, like mine, are irrelevant to the matter being discussed. Nevertheless, for the record and without verifiable (on here) proof, I am a fully self-funded retiree, and living very comfortably in my retirement, hence I, rightly, don’t qualify for any form of government pension.

JS – here’s where you accused the top 10% of not paying their share of tax:

“Begs the question, what if the top 10% paid tax on their true income, rather than what they can’t hide, how much more revenue would be generated?”

Pretty unfounded cynicism. Given your aversion to any evidence proffered to you, perhaps you’d like to back that comment up. Such jealousy.

It’s funny that if Pengold was more competent, he could have gone with any number of links discussing economic elasticities and the impact of income (and other taxes) on labour force metrics and government revenue. and how more efficient tax mixes are beneficial to overall economic performance.

But instead goes with linking a beyond simple opinion piece from a US right wing think tank who promote lower taxes and are funded by extremely wealthy individuals.
And then calls it “evidence”. Bahahahaha.

And that’s not even starting on the incorrect assumptions being used by some that working less, inherently means lower productivity. Productivity being a measure of output per unit of work, not overall output.

@Penfold
Perhaps I should have said “legally hide”. Because, no-one has ever faced criminal charges for legally hiding, their income in schemes, such as private trusts, to minimise their tax obligation.

Nevertheless, I simply opined that if such ‘tax minimisation’ schemes did not exist, it would be interesting to see, how much tax the top 10% of income earners would actually pay. Obviously, this is of no interest to you – that’s fine.

@chewy14
Oh oh, chewy, I suspect you are about to be added to the (now growing) list of ‘not very trusting souls’, because you dare to question the “evidence” meticulously assembled by Penfold.

Twist your words all you like JS, they’re there for all to see. Such a cynical view of your fellow Australians.

Ps not much point discussing evidence with chewy, though I loved the big words he concatenated to sound economically literate.

@Penfold
I’m more than happy to be held accountable for my words, Penfold. Your view of cynicism, is my view of reality. But then again, thankfully, you and I have different values.

It would appear, this thread has now gone beyond its usefulness.

I agree there’s not much point in you discussing evidence with me Pengold, you’d have to understand the topics on which you post first.

Maybe if you “concatenated” some rational thoughts together you’d sound literate on, well, anything.

We certainly do have different values JS. Notably on the other forum you declared asylum seekers “innocent before proven guilty”, yet you don’t apply the same to the top 10% of income earners and certainly not conservative posters. That is one convoluted example of dissonance.

chewy the best part of your post is how pleasantly engaging you are, it’s always such a delight exchanging ideas. Takes me back to kindergarten days.

“Takes me back to kindergarten days.”

Last week hey, Ah those were the days.

If you were actually interested in debating or “exchanging ideas”, then we could easily have more interesting conversations. But you’ve made it abundantly clear that isn’t remotely what you’re here for.

There’s lots of exchanging ideas that go on with sensible people. Ones who just want to dish out abuse, well there’s little point.

As a hint perhaps think about attacking issues and not people.

LOL,
The irony of your writing that last comment is beyond ridiculous.

The lack of self awareness you display is hilarious.

@Penfold
Because I belived the thread was closed, Penfold, I missed your next nonseniscal rant, but, nevertheless, I will address it.

Yet again, you demonstrate your lack of ability in reading comprehension, Penfold. I addressed, “on the other forum”, the matter of ‘presumption of innocence’, for the top 10% of income earners, by stating that there was no need for that presumption, as to my knowledge they haven’t been charged with any tax-related offences. If you have facts to show otherwise, then of course, they are entitled to the presumption of innocence, until the matter is resolved in court.

Oh and as for your extension of your gripe to conservative posters, I assume you are referring to yourself. Well, again, if you are charged with an offence, then I have no problem with you, or any other conservative poster, being presumed innocent, at least, until it is resolved in court. For you to infer I said otherwise, is not only disingenuous, but a lie.

Wealth industry experts and respected financial media are warning us about the multiple dangers of the Division 296 proposal. Even our own independent Senator David Pocock rightfully opposed it.
Superannuation expert Meg Heffron wrote in the AFR yesterday: “ the great evil of Division 296 tax is that it taxes growth now rather than in the future when the investments are sold. So people who invest in things that earn very little income but grow a lot are particularly disadvantaged by this tax.”
We should not be taxed on what we don’t have. A tax on unrealised capital gains is a tax on a perceived value at a point in time. It’s a tax on a superannuation balance, not on income. A share price and value is often higher one day, lower the next. Value materialises when the asset is sold. When the capital gain is realised.
Division 296 tax is a deceptive trojan horse, designed to catch some now, all later.
It’s misleading to claim only 0.5% of super account holders (80,000), will be taxed.
It’s delusionary to believe that taxing the ‘excessive’ savings value of the old, the wrinkly and the rich (who’ve worked decades longer) will redistribute wealth. It won’t.
It’s socially divisive to use the old tricks of envy, greed and class politics to turn young against old. Don’t you worry about them. The wealthy. You deserve their savings.
One day you too, Gen Ys, Millennials, Gen Zs and the yet unborn, will be older, richer with your superannuation savings pushing through the unindexed threshold. Assets built up and invested over a working life, expenditure foregone, long hours worked, to provide for your own retirement, to avoid reliance on an age pension, to avoid being a burden on younger taxpayers. Then you too will be paying this regressive tax on the unrealised capital gain of your own asset value.
And wondering why in 2025 some were so envious, greedy, naive, gullible and deluded to be deceived into wheeling in this trojan horse of a tax.
Those trying to justify this unfair, nonsensical proposal merely confirm how bad it really is.
Drop the tax on unrealised capital gains in superannuation. Drop the unindexed threshold.

You just have to look at the ridiculous hyperbole in comments like these when the change is so minor in reality.

People with millions of dollars will have to pay slightly more tax and will have reduced benefit in attempting to to use Super as a tax avoidance and inheritance scheme.

And I say this as someone who will almost certainly be subject to this tax in the future.

The bleating from the self interested is so far over the top it isn’t funny.

@Acton
“It’s misleading to claim only 0.5% of super account holders (80,000), will be taxed.”
How is it misleading? Are you saying that there are more than 80,000 Australians who have over $3 M in their super account? Or are you just predicting the very, very far future when it will be more common because the $3M threshold is not indexed?

If it’s the latter, I refer you to (demon) PAYG bracket creap … and the irrefutable fact that those brackets are (eventually) adjusted to remove the tax penalty, incurred from wage rises.

It is a neat con-job people like Acton and Meg Heffron are trying to pull when they waggle their jowls over the iniquity of unrealised gains.

One reason for putting a capital growth / low income asset into super is because you can wait until retirement then flog off the asset at ZERO tax. Oops.

Meanwhile you try to fool people into thinking taxing realised gains is a “highly principled” idea, exactly because you know you can avoid it.

Hands up all those with investment property. Hands up all those who pay tax on unrealised gains on their land value. It will be exactly the same set of people. It is called Land Tax. People like Acton would rather pretend that does not count.

Hands up all retirees paying themselves the minimum 5% (up to age 75) and whose fund has a net gain in the last financial year. Hands up all those required to pay themselves more this year based on those unrealised gains. It will be exactly the same set of people. You are deemed to have that value, even though it includes unrealised gains on risk assets, and you must pay yourself that amount in the present year even if your investment value is now falling.

There are other examples of deeming. We have progressive taxation of operating income. What is wrong with progressive taxation of capital?

“The bleating from the self interested is so far over the top it isn’t funny.”
Chewy14 is right. The squawking greed really isn’t funny and the falsifications put forward to preserve it are worse.

Quite right Acton, taxing unrealised capital gains is morally worse than robo-debt where at least the recipients declarations played a part.

Some people are really struggling to understand the actual issue here, blindly thinking if it’s Labor policy it must be good. The ridiculous spending of this government shouldn’t be propped up by cynical tax grabs.

@Penfold
“robo-debt where at least the recipients declarations played a part”
Oh, so it was kind of OK, to make assumptions, about a person’s income, because their on welfare, but not about the assets of superannuation holders with over $3M, which they have purchased, to delay paying tax?

You really do love promoting class wars don’t you, Penfold?

Penfold’s opening paragraph is unmitigated rubbish. It is difficult to think of two more unrelated things in either a moral or practical sense.

I have also seen that Penfold always struggles when numbers are involved.

JS – your inability to understand this issue has previously been noted. And once again you confuse “class warfare” with principles. This policy is simply theft.

And the other issue worth brushing up on is the difference between hard earned income and welfare.

Penfold, Robodebt was illegal, and I need not go on from there.

Your attempt at false equivalence between taxation and that illegality is an expression of your own moral turpitude.

Your failure to address any the facts of the tax is typical of your failures elsewhere.

Capital Retro9:40 am 03 Jun 25

I reckon that a smart person like you chewy (expert on just about everything) would have justifiably amassed millions in your superfund so your talk about greed and self-interest of others is just a smoke-screen for your own indulgence.

CR – one suspects when chewy talks about being impacted by the policy one day, it’s in 50 years time.

@Penfold
What has become clear to me as this ‘debate’ progresses, is the fact that you only see issue, where the system may (according to you), ‘punish’ those who are trying to avoid ‘pulling their weight’ in our civilised society. I’ve previously cited the widely respected former US Supreme Court Justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes: ““Taxes are what you pay for a civilized (sic) society.”

“the difference between hard earned income and welfare”
And you are seriously trying to suggest that your (so called) “principles” are not class warfare. As vipr32 has opined, your really do wallow in your own moral turpitude.

Nevertheless, I see that your issue is with the ‘assumption of growth’ in assets held within a super portfolio. So you are OK with the increase of the tax rate to 30%, for balances over $3M?

While I and others have provide many precedents where asset value is assumed, perhaps you should lobby the government, that they only take into account the original purchase price of that asset when identifying balances over $3M – and then the real capital gain can be taxed appropriately when the asset is sold. Win – win. You don’t get taxed on your ‘unrealised gain’ and the government still gets its appropriate tax revenue on your super holdings.

Capital Retro,
Unfortunately, not being an ancient like yourself, I missed out on the full largesse of the Howard era free for all on Super. You do realise they’ve changed the rules over time right?
However I’m well aware of the tax advantages I gain from maximising both concessional and non-concessional contributions as allowable, which is why I’ve said above I’ll almost certainly be paying this tax in the future.

Doesn’t really change anything about my comments though, the purpose of Super is not as a tax avoidance and inheritance vehicle and I have no problems with them limiting the concessionality of Super. Particularly when it’s still so advantageous even with these changes.

Capital Retro11:23 am 03 Jun 25

chewy, “born to late” is not an excuse and in fact, it isn’t relevant in this debate.

I give you 10/10 again for thinking it up.

CR these left leaners are confusing sometimes. They love telling us how superannuation was a wonderful Labor idea, which it was, then complain about the “Howard era free for all”.

chewy btw we’re still waiting for you to explain this wonderful notion of “100% renewable offsets”. If you’re trying to tell us that you understand the intrinsics of the superannuation system, surely you can explain your comments around the energy market.

Capital Retro,
unsurprisingly you cannot debate the facts and previous changes to superannuation that I reference, nor the current proposed changes. Maybe your memory is starting to go?

I give you 0-10 for the weak attempts at an ad-hominem, failing miserably again.

Oh Pengold is back, off-topic and being asked for lessons on the basics of the ACT Government’s 100% renewable energy offsets that have been explained to him numerous times. That Goldfish memory doesn’t seem to help in having meaningful discussions.

Maybe once you’ve worked out how to calculate percentage increases, or anything to do with maths really, you could rejoin the discussion on energy. Have you worked out what a capacity factor is yet?

So you still can’t explain chewy. Oh well, how about telling us what non-concessional contributions are because it’s very hard to believe you would have ever made one.

Oh, so Pengold is still going to attempt to comment on topics he has no knowledge in and keeps forgetting previous discussions only a few days old.

Makes sense that you keep making such a fool of yourself with the failed attempts at trolling on almost every thread.

How much of a percentage increase is the proposed Superannuation change Pengold?

Capital Retro12:19 pm 03 Jun 25

My memory is fine chewy because I can clearly remember you resorting to your egotistical persona on many previous occasions when I have failed to challenge your intellectual fantasies.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Which word did you struggle with chewy – “concessional” or “non” ?

Ah, so you’re just posting meaningless off topic drivel then Capital Retro.

Unsurprising as usual.

Which word did you struggle with Pengold, percentage or increase?

Already answered that chewy – “100% renewable offset”. Care to explain ? 🥳

@Penfold
I’m going to assume your reply to me, in the next thread, was meant to refer to my above comment in this thread.

“I’ll presume that means you haven’t been able to distinguish between welfare and income.”
If one person’s legal entitlement to an age pension and another person’s taxation obligation are both based on the method used by the government to ‘caculate’ income, why do I need to distinguish between “welfare and income”? Again, you may wish to differentiate, because of your predilection for a class war, but I simply see income as income, no matter who earns it.

“Nor been able to understand the real issue at hand.”
You are certainly correct, in that, I don’t understand this ‘issue’ which you seem to think exists.

“I’m happy to pay tax …”
Yeah … nah, I’m not buying that, Penfold. Now if you had said, “I grudgingly pay tax on my residual income, because sadly I can’t find enough schemes to reduce it to zero” – that I would buy.

” I’m also happy to help those who need it the most, not those who refuse to pull their weight, quite a number”
Hmmm … I’m not sure how you define ‘pull their weight’, but Joe Hockey’s ‘heavy lifters’ are generally seen to be the middle income earners. This is probably those on the current median annual salary in Australia, around $72,000, or even the average annual salary, slightly higher, at around $98,000. These are hardly the kind of people who will have $3M in their super account, yet they are certainly ‘pulling their weight’.

So you can’t tell the difference between an income, which people go out and work for, and a handout which they don’t ? Goodness JS, you’re a worry 😟

“Already answered that chewy”

Must have been in one of those unquoted personal conversations hey Pengold.

@Penfold
So, you can’t read, Penfold? I didn’t say, I can’t tell the difference between income and welfare, I simply stated that I don’t need to do so.

When you bring illiteracy and comprehension difficulties to the table, Penfold, you have more to worry about than I 😱

Sterling Stillwater12:29 pm 01 Jun 25

A writer in Morningstar has provided a helpful example of the tax at work. It is based on someone having a handy $4M in accumulation in super (a minority even among those over $3M) making a nice 12.5% profit to give them $4.5M at year end.

After adjusting for contributions they will pay nearly $24,000 in this new tax, a bit less than a single pension of around $30,000. That will leave the wealthier person, not yet a retiree, with over $470,000 net income added to their existing unrealised $4M.

$24,000 additional tax is about 4.8% of their $500,000 unrealised gain, or 1.6% of their amount over $3M, or 0.5% of their total accumulating funds.

Isn’t life so unfair for the wealthy? No wonder some of them have pitchforks out over this outrageous offence to their self-interest.

Don’t bother making the very ignorant error of accusing me of wealth-envy. This is about society, a concept even some people with money can recognise.

@Sterling Silverwater
Very well articulated 👍

The intent of super was to avoid having everyone on welfare in old age. It was always our money.

Now we’re raiding super to pay for welfare for everyone else.

Just scrap super and give everyone their super money to construct new dwellings.

Most super companies are charging a tax anyway in super fees.

There is no push to have more people working.

What a pile of trash.

“Now we’re raiding super to pay for welfare for everyone else.” ….they’re not….so there’s that.

Capital Retro9:36 am 03 Jun 25

Right Henry, and the person who created superannuation (Paul Keating) is yet to have his say on what he thinks about the new tax.
I think Keating should be applauded for his foresight and he even made provision for “moms and dads” by introducing the SMSF.

When superannuation members reach 95 (more common these days than many would think) the minimum annual pension drawdown rate is 14% which is a great leap from 5% at 75yo. This is the way the system was designed, ie that the fund would be run down about the time the members died.
What was that about a “tax haven” for beneficiaries of wills?

There is another “tax” not being talked about and that is the crippling aged care costs for self-funded people who choose to stay at home for aged care and in the process save the government tens of thousands of dollars just as they do by not accessing the taxpayer funded age pension and all the freebies that go with that.

@Capital Retro
“save the government tens of thousands of dollars just as they do by not accessing the taxpayer funded age pension and all the freebies that go with that”
You have previously complained that the government does nothing for self funded retirees, CR, so I reckon that if your income / assets were not so high, you’d jump at the opportunity to claim the age pension and ‘all the freebies that go with that’.

How kind of you to offer a free character assessment JS. I’ll presume that means you haven’t been able to distinguish between welfare and income. Nor been able to understand the real issue at hand.

Btw who said anything about not wanting to pay tax ? I’m happy to pay tax but not for the outlandish spending of this government. I’m also happy to help those who need it the most, not those who refuse to pull their weight, quite a number. Those who pull their weight the least seem to be the ones demanding super theft be implemented. No surprise there.

Capital Retro11:28 am 03 Jun 25

Indeed JS, a lot of people with a SMSF and normal superannuation do just that.

I know it is an alien concept for someone like you but I have integrity and I practice what I preach.

@Capital Retro
Yes, you are right, CR – you and integrity in the same sentence, is an alien concept for me. Nevertheless, I will take your word for it.

HiddenDragon9:27 pm 30 May 25

“And they want the generational inequity that John Howard and Peter Costello built into the system dismantled.”

Except, of course, when they stand to benefit from that inequity (which is at least as much socio-economic class inequity as it is generational) in the form of gifts and inheritances – it wasn’t just self-interest on the part of older voters that cost Labor the 2019 election.

A useful starting point for more serious savings from superannuation tax concessions would be to compare the cost of current concessions with a careful estimate of the costs had the full design features of the original system, with limits updated for wage growth/CPI, been retained. A Treasurer with a doctorate in Keatingology should be well placed to argue that case.

On the other side of the ledger, reported kite-flying (presumably not of the freelance variety) by Steven Kennedy earlier in the week about the prospect of means tested co-payments for the NDIS suggests an acknowledgement that the structural problems in the Budget won’t all be fixed by revenue raising.

Incidental Tourist5:15 pm 30 May 25

33 years ago Labor Prime minister and Treasurer Paul Keating argued of lower tax on super was to reduce government pension expenditure, retain capital domestically and encourage productivity. He made famous “Banana republic” argument when Australia faced serious economic crisis. It looks like 33 years later we are set on a path to repeat same problems which we had back then.

$3M sounds like a lot now, but 20 years from now it will be median super balance. Many young people will be thinking “Why should I make extra super contributions if by the time of retirement most of my hard earned assets will be confiscated?”

“$3M sounds like a lot now, but 20 years from now it will be median super balance.”

Will it? According to the Business Council of Australia in its submission to the Committee considering this bill for the last parliament, it will take 30 years, not 20, for 10% of funds, not 50%, to reach $3M.

In 20 years there will be six or seven elections. In 30 years there will be ten. Both indexation and threshold change remain open. The tax itself is small in effect because it is only on the amount above $3M as a proportion of all funds held.

You are slippery-sloping like most of the dumber arguments here.

Incidental Tourist1:49 pm 31 May 25

It’s a fallacy to think that this tax doesn’t impact balances under $3M. Its most profound impact will be exactly on balances under this threshold by discouraging many people to make non-compulsory super-contributions.

There are not massed ranks of people just below the threshold. Those who are might pause to calculate actual tax impact compared with investment outside super before panicking. Part of the intent is to lessen incentives to use super as a taxpayer- funded vehicle for inheritance so having money invested outside is no loss to society or to the government nor in reality to the retiree’s lifestyle.

Incidental Tourist2:39 pm 01 Jun 25

The issue is not with accounts just shy of threshold. The issue is lack of confidence in super as a tax effective accumulation vehicle for all balances. This will impact voluntary super contributions.

$3M is not automatically indexed. Hence “as is” this threshold will creep down with inflation while the balances will grow. 20 years ago many assets like shares or real estate cost some 20% what they are (ASX index 1800 in 2005 vs 8200 today). So without indexing $3M will buy in 20 years of what $600K buys now (20%). Given growing populism many young people loose trust in the superannuation system. They’ll think that future populist governments hungry for tax dollars may only raise this threshold reluctantly below inflation if at all. They won’t volunteer to save (voluntary super contributions) or take initiative to work and earn more. Why? Why earn and save if any extra income will be punitively taxed ? This will be to the loss of productivity and what Paul Keating refereed as banana republic economy.

@Incidental Tourist
Your ‘fears’ are no different to PAYG earners who are impacted by bracket creep. It doesn’t lead to people not asking for a pay rise, it just increases the volume on the call for the bracket thresholds to be increased – which the government eventually does.

Just as PAYG tax brackets should be indexed, so should the $3 m threshold for the 30% tax on super. However, no government (irrespective of their political flavour) wants to index PAYG thresholds, because they get a windfall, until the clamouring gets loud enough that they do increase the threshold. The same will happen with the $3 m super threshold.

Incidental Tourist, what a dismally awful argument. Do you really believe any of that? I have an Opera House to sell.

You have failed in every way to counter any of my original points, nor absorbed that super is still concessionally taxed for everyone. Repeat, for everyone.

On your failed argument all Australians abandoned work in 1915 when Federal income tax was introduced and everything since is an illusion. For you, possibly true.

Incidental Tourist9:17 am 02 Jun 25

I am talking about Banana republic and I hear back about fairness of progressive tax system..

Fair or not progressive tax has been proven to cause loss of productivity. Progressive tax encourages mediocrity and it punitively tax productivity. It leads to “Banana republic” in Paul Keating words. We’ve learnt this hard lesson through 1980s to 1990s lasting recession. And that almost decade long recession only ended in 1990s with John Howard starting significant deregulation push. Back then both labor Keating and liberal Howard agreed that unproductive Banana republic is more unfair in many ways than less unfair concessional super tax.

Taxing 80,000 people at 15% more is not going to deliver much revenue. Perhaps it’s not enough to brake even Canberra tram project let alone be noticed across Australia. The loss of confidence in super however will cause disproportional fall of extra super contributions (loss of 15% tax on it) and disincentive many young to save for retirement.

Incidental Tourist, firstly you have no idea of the nature of Keating’s “banana republic” comment. He was referring (not refereeing) to consequences of over-reliance on primary industries, mining and agriculture.

You may wish to offer some citations, other than from Rinehart or the IPA, that “progressive tax has been proven to cause loss of productivity” given productivity is all about the fabled working smarter, not harder, i.e. new technologies.

It seems the tax turns out in practice to be about a third of the headline 15%. I remind you also that according to the Business Council of Australia it will take about 30 years, ten elections, before even 10% are affected. You are living unreality.

@Incidental Tourist
“progressive tax has been proven to cause loss of productivity”
Where do you get this tripe from? Seriously, did you make it up yourself, or did you get your opinion from some anarchistic manifesto?

Australia has had a progressive income tax system since 1915! Are you saying that productivity has been declining for over 100 years?

Incidental Tourist6:43 pm 03 Jun 25

References: Edward C. Prescott (2004) – “Why Do Americans Work So Much More Than Europeans?” Gentry & Hubbard (2000) – “Tax Policy and Entrepreneurial Entry”

IT – references are lost on our progressive friends. If they can’t understand them they claim they’re not evidence and just deflect. Productivity in Australia grew for decades though JS hasn’t a clue about it. Was strong for years, dropped during Turnbull then plummeted when Albo got in in 2022.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/measuring-what-matters/measuring-what-matters-themes-and-indicators/prosperous/productivity

I checked your references, Incidental Tourist. The second is ambiguous in that it can make no finding on entrepreneurial efficiency (who is attracted and to what effect), as it states early.

Your first reference is very interesting. It shows that Americans work longer hours than anyone except the Japanese among the G-7. Europeans in particular have higher progressive tax rates and in some case wealth or inheritance taxes. It then shows that productivity is as high as the US in Germany, is higher in France, and not far off in Italy and Canada yet those workers get far more leisure time just like the slack British.

Hours worked != productivity. Labour supply != productivity. An aim of efficient work is more leisure, not more work. Your thesis fails.

Penfold’s reference to the ABS says zero about tax. No-one need be surprised that Penfold does not understand the subject. He never wants to.

The effective marginal tax rate on balances above $3M, owned by 0.5% and estimated to take 30 years to reach 10% of the population, are low, a few percent. This is well known now. Trying to construct a mountain out of this mote says most about those attempting it.

@Penfold
You shot both yourself and Incidental Tourist down in flames, with your “Productivity in Australia grew for decades …” comment. Given Australia has had a progressive income tax system since 1915, how could productivity grow at all, let alone for decades, under such a system, if “progressive tax is the cause loss of productivity”?

Some 2000 follower cooker thinks that making 0.05% of the population pay a small amount of extra tax is the end of compulsory super…lol

I’d hope most “Labor Luvvies” would have better critical thinking skills than that.

“A small amount of tax”. Only a person with soft hands would say that

IDK how people earn their money affects the amount of tax they pay. Please explain it to me?

PS. I like how you’re desperate to paint some picture of me from behind your keyboard, keep guessing, you’ll get one right eventually.

tom anderson1:25 pm 30 May 25

Many people in Defined Benefit Scheme Pensions [CSS, PSS, Military, Parliamentarians, Judges] are going to be caught in this as it likely their pension will be multiplied by 16 and that total added to their superannuation balance. I don’t think anyone minds a tax rate of 30% over this contrived $3 million but not when it is on unrealised gains.

It’s great to stop the rich from gaming the super system and restore fairness to society, but it serves no good purpose to pitch the young against the old.

@Canberran
I’m sure that in the 0.5% of super account holders who will be affected, there is a mix of extremely high earning young and old people.

Capital Retro1:05 pm 30 May 25

Please explain exactly how the rich are gaming the super system, Canberran.

Capital Retro9:42 am 03 Jun 25

Why can’t you give the details, Canberran?

You’re missing the point here Ian. Taxing anyone – the rich, the poor, gen z, whoever – on money they haven’t earned or seen yet, isn’t just bad policy. It’s morally wrong and distinctly un-Australian. Fails the pub test.

Some are calling this Chalmer’s mining tax moment. It cooked his boss Wayne Swan and it might cook him too. Here’s an economic hint – if the Greens think something is a good idea, the chances are it’s a stinker.

As for the North West shelf – well finally a sensible environmental decision from the government. Affordable, cleaner and reliable gas.

@Penfold
I think it’s you who is missing the point, Penfold.

You infer that the tax “on money they haven’t earned or seen yet” doesn’t already happen. People are currently paying a 15% tax rate on super, as it goes into their accumulation account. The proposal is to add a second progressive rate, i.e. 30% on the balance exceeding $3m.

Some superannuation industry experts, such as Gary Weaven, have lauded the proposal and suggested it should be pushed ahead quickly.

I agree with everything you said Penfold. It’s a very slippery slope once you start down the unrealised gains path.

JS – totally incorrect. The 15% is paid as your super goes in the front door. It goes in the front door after you’ve earned it.

Have a look at a payslip.

Haven’t heard of Gary Weaven but I have heard of Paul Keating, Phillip Lowe and Ken Henry, all who have said it’s a shocking piece of public policy.

Perhaps you should read up about it.

“Some superannuation industry experts, such as Gary Weaven, have lauded the proposal and suggested it should be pushed ahead quickly” Yet some (actually many) pollies (all sides of politics), judges and police commissioners are unaffected – those on public service salaries North of the PM’s salary. And speaking of the PM and his assets – he is unaffected while still in parliament. So his $3m plus account is untouched. His assets don’t need to be sold off as part of the tax gouge, however If you have worked hard in private industry and setup your SMSF, you are targeted, and even if you have an industry fund with more than $3m, you are not safe. True, despicable socialism

Coffee-Time, what is the last slippery slope that ever eventuated?

All it expresses if fear and excuses. It is not an argument.

@Penfold
So 15%, through the front door, becomes 30% if the balance is over $3M … surely same concept, but just at a different rate?

Serious question – what am I missing here?

“Yet some (actually many) pollies (all sides of politics), judges and police commissioners are unaffected – those on public service salaries North of the PM’s salary”

This is simply incorrect. Everyone who meets the criteria will be subject to the tax, the only difference for people in defined benefits funds is that they will be able to accrue to tax liability (with interest) until they meet the requirements for release of funds from their accounts.

The whinging from a tiny section of the population over this change is way over the top.

Superannuation is not supposed to be a tax avoidance scheme and a level of limitation on concessionality is reasonable. Even with the change, the level of concessions provided are high.

Whilst taxation of unrealised gains is not desirable, neither is wealthy people placing multimillion dollar assets such as farms within their SMSF as a way to avoid tax and transfer wealth to their heirs.

What you’re missing JS is that this policy is equivalent to the government asking you to pay PAYG tax before you’ve been paid.

It’s on unrealised – meaning not received – earnings. It’s like being hit with capital gains tax before you’ve sold your shares. Or being asked to pay tax on investment property for capital growth before you’ve sold it.

The problem isn’t the 30%, ignoring the broken promises aspect. It’s being asked to pay it before the profit is realised.

Rich people will move their funds which is very bad news for superfunds. Their portfolios will shrink.

Coffee Time is 100% correct, this is a terrible slippery slope moment, as many Labor stalwarts have pointed out.

It’s not fear vipr, it’s financial theft.

“Rich people will move their funds which is very bad news for superfunds.”

Superfunds have liquidity responsibilities around diversification, which means they should be able to meet their liabilities with minimal change.

Individuals who have overcapitalised on a small amount of certain assets within SMSF’s may have more of an issue but that also means they haven’t been adhering to their responsibilities in managing their fund.

The tax treatment is also still concessional so the idea of a mass sell off of assets doesn’t really fly either.

Can I confirm that by that logic you would prefer if the current 15% was removed?

@Penfold
But those, who hold super accumulation accounts, of which I am one, are already paying 15% “before the profit is realised”.

So, while I can see that those with over $3M in their super account (the top 0.5% of holders), are complaining because their rich super holdings will not attract as big a concession – for the amount in excess of $3M, that’s the nature of our progressive tax system … the higher the amount, including PAYG, the more you pay.

Also, where is the broken promise aspect? This change to super was never off the Labor agenda.

MC – we’d all love to pay no tax. But no, it’s fair to pay tax on super contributions on the way in and it’s a far lower rate than my marginal one so all good.

No JS you’re paying 15% on your contribution, which is 11.5% of your earnings. You pay 0% on the profit.

As for the broken promise, Albo promised no changes to super.

Btw JS even Wayne Swan thinks this is a stinker. Wonder if he’s going to give his protoge a call.

Penfold, I asked Coffee-Time what was the last slippery slope that ever eventuated.

I see that neither of you has an answer, you simply squawk slippery slope. That is not an argument.

“It’s like … being asked to pay tax on investment property for capital growth before you’ve sold it.”

That is exactly what happens today. It is called Land Tax, and it rises with unrealised gain in land value.

Many people complain a lot about that tax on unrealised gain too. Yet I still see many rental properties available in Canberra.

The 0.5% or so having to add a few percent to their effective marginal tax rate on accumulated funds will still afford their luxuries, while still complaining.

The last slippery slope ? Lol, how about climate change. The biggest and most expensive slippery slope in modern history.

Penfold, would you please provide references to where Wayne Swan called the tax a “stinker” or Ken Henry called the tax a “shocker”.

The tax is no surprise. It was Labor policy entering the 2025 election. The only possible broken promise would be not to try to legislate it.

That response on slippery slope was nonsensical Penfold.

Look up Wikipedia or something to find out what the term means. You will notice there that it is described as fear-mongering, and you seem quite the monger.

Vipr Henry said it eight days ago in The Australian. Swan said it privately. But as he’s Chair of Cbus, President of the ALP and Jimmy’s teacher he’s unlikely to say it publicly.

Took your advice vipr. “Fear mongering”:

“The action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue”.

Has there been a better example than climate change in the last few hundred years ?

No references were provided by Penfold. No specific quotations, or tapes of private conversations. It was a beat-up, not even an argument on the subject.

Penfold is unable to deal with the challenge of ever finding a culminating slippery slope argument as it is defined, just like Coffee-Time. Fear-mongering is what the informal fallacy is really about, not what it is. Penfold does not seem to do anything else.

What you think, or fail to think, about climate change is not relevant here Penfold.

Slippery slope – a bad situation or habit that, after it has started, is likely to get very much worse
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/slippery-slope

Slippery Slope – a course of action likely to lead to something bad or disastrous.

Very funny vipr, feel free to view the Oz article anytime you like. As for Swannie, feel free to ask him. He certainly made those comments.

Clearly the climate change reference has gone straight over the head. Though as a vipr, spending life slithering on the ground, most things probably do. 🙂

Capital Retro10:08 pm 30 May 25

Gary Weaven was recruited by Westpac from the trade unions.

The unions needed to know how to set up their industry fund and the bank needed a new customer with huge upside potential.

The rest is history.

@Penfold
You keep on referring to the 15% … but all I am seeing from reports, is that for amounts over $3m in super accumulation, there is an additional 15%, i.e. 30%.

And there are precedents for using unrealised gains. Centrelink does that via deeming, wherein an assumed income from financial assets, is used for the income test for Age Pension. But of course, those rich retirees on the Age Pension can afford the reduction in their pension – unlike those struggling 0.5% with super balances over $3M.

And I haven’t been able to find any references where, after raising the prospect of the change for +$3M accounts, he said it was off the table. I do note that he did say it would not take affect until after the next election … i.e. shades of Howard and the no GST ‘promise’.

JS well done, i wondered if you’d pick up the JWH similarities. As Albo won the election on it. It’s not the 30% that’s the issue – it’s demanding the money before it’s been received. Simple theft. Morally worse than robo-debt, but a different demographic.

As for deeming, you can hardly compare a means-tested welfare payment to income theft. And here’s a question – how many “rich retirees on an aged pension” are there ? Zero.

@Capital Retro
Yes, CR, you are right, Garry Weaven did have a stint with WestPac in the early 1990s before becoming one of the architects of industry super funds. It seems like the sorcerer’s apprentice has out done the master, if, as you say, Weaven learned “how to set up their industry fund” from his time at Westpac.

As a result of Weaven’s “superannuation vision”, millions of Australians have benefitted from investing in funds, which have been shown to regularly out-perform retail super funds, while paying less management and associated fees.

Again, as you say, the rest is history. As it shows Weaven had an integral role in delivering a much better future to potential and actual retirees.

Fittingly, Weaven was, deservedly awarded the Super Review Magazine Lifetime Achievement Award in 2023. And he achieved all of that success in the super industry, from his start as a union offical.

@Penfold
“As Albo won the election on it.”
I’m not sure I’d say super was a major part of the recent election, but at least we now agree, no broken promises.

“Morally worse than robo-debt”? You might want to dial back on the hyperbole. Take that out and you have offered nothing to clarify why 15% is ok, but not 30, on balances over $3M.

Oh OK, so it’s ok for the government, to use “money before it’s been received”, to assess income for a legal entitlement, in the Age Pension, but not for anything else. Sounds a bit like your engaging in a class war there, Penfold.

Oh and I do apologise, for the fact that my ironical use of the term “rich retirees”, went over your head.

Penfold still cannot provide a reference for his claim for either party, one of which we are expected to believe on the basis of an unrecorded “private conversation”. Penfold, you are a fraud.

Coffee-Time, the notion of the slippery slope non-argument is obvious. My question to you and to Penfold was to show a single such argument which had ever eventuated.

Penfold’s finest effort was to say he does not like something he does not understand, which is childish.

Neither of you show such a case, validating my statement that using the fallacious slippery slope is not an argument but self-interested fear-mongering.

vipr32,
Head over to whirlpool as they have a mad thread dealing with this Super tax which i’m sure you will enjoy.
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9w8ywxrv

Someone posted about Denmark maybe looking at unrealised gains on Bitcoin. No idea how true it all is, link below.
https://taxnatives.com/blog/denmark-eyes-taxing-unrealized-crypto-profits/

Well vipr if you can’t cope with the notion that people say things and you can’t access a transcript of it then welcome to the real world. Frankly I couldn’t give two hoots whether you believe it or not.

Beside, all Swan’s doing is agreeing with many others that this tax is a stinker.

Penfold, Angus Taylor said that this tax is a brilliant idea and something Australia desperately needs.

If you can’t cope with the notion that people say things and you can’t access a transcript of it then welcome to the real world. Frankly I couldn’t give two hoots whether you believe it or not.

Beside[s], all Taylor’s doing is agreeing with many others that this tax is great policy.

Albanese doesn’t seem like a PM who’ll countenance any strong action. He’s a “Let’s not get ahead of ourselves “ PM. Whether he’ll allow his Treasurer to make these sensible changes is doubtful.

Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? Every day we package the most popular Region Canberra stories and send them straight to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.

By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.