Bibi takes a personal swipe at Albo over Palestine

100% agree Hamas are bad but the humanitarian crisis in Gaza must end also, which is why I support Labor recognising Palestine without Hamas.

But I don’t think it says anything much about our community that a very online culture wars clown would lie and claim that Labor support Hamas when they demonstrably do not; and then when called out for this nonsense adopt the Trumpian tactic of doubling down on the lie. Culture wars clowns are a dime a dozen.

And whilst the world is currently in a dark place I suspect the era of rejecting provable facts when they don’t fit a political narrative without consequence will pass with the passing of Trump. We might not recover from all of the harms caused during this era but we will recover.

So isn’t it fascinating Hayward that our Prime Minister has now swung back to supporting the PLO through Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.

@Penfold
Yes , that’s right, Penfold, Mahmoud Abbas is President of the Palestinian Authority, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization and general commander of the Fatah movement. So what? None of these are declared terrorist organisations – unlike Hamas.

What conspiracy are you trying to fabricate now?

Um …. the PLO isn’t ? Presumably neither is ISIS then.

@Penfold
Do you ever consider checking the facts, before stating your ‘version of fabricated truth’, Penfold🤥🤥🤥?

Try googling “Is the PLO a terrorist organisation?”

Guess what? You will find it (PLO) is not listed on the Australian National Security’s official ‘listed terrorist organisations’ page (https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations).

Even your reference site of choice, Wikipedia, states that the PLO “is a Palestinian nationalist coalition that is internationally recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people in both the occupied Palestinian territories and the diaspora. It is currently represented by the Palestinian Authority.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization)

Oh and, as listed, Islamic State is a declared terrorist organisation … so your presumption is wrong 🤦‍♂️

Keep trying, Penfold🤥🤥🤥 – I’m sure, eventually, even you will be able to come up with something factual.

Penfold also chooses to ignore the fact that Israel spawned Hamas.

Not at all Hayward. Israel helped Hamas evolve because at the time they were seen as an option to counter the PLO. The PLO was founded on the principles of the elimination of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state.

And guess what ? Hamas was founded on the principles of the elimination of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state.

Now there’s plenty of history over the years but in what’s dubbed “the Battle of Gaza” (June 2007), these groups with the same goals, finished up dividing the West Bank and the Gaza Strip through a civil war. Seems a little odd wouldn’t you think. Perhaps they were more about themselves and their power base than their stated goals.

But let’s fast forward to today. Apparently now it’s PLO good, Hamas bad. It used to be Hamas good, PLO bad. Perhaps tomorrow it will be PLO bad, Hamas good. Wonder what Albanese’s position tomorrow will be.

Here’s a counter thought – none of them should be trusted at all. Leopards don’t change their spots. But left wing governments do. As do their supporters who appear unaware of the history of the Middle East going back more than 20 years.

Up there with some of your best nonsensical drivel Stephen. Not even an attempt at a kernel of truth.

Labor support a path to peace which includes removing Hamas.

And you’re quite welcome to protest China or whatever other conspiratorial nonsense you believe in. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by reasonable, rational people.

What a lot of crap.

The phrase is “load of crap”. Like… “denying Israel is committing genocide is a load of crap”

Well any suggestion that Israel is committing genocide is crap too.

Think about it for a moment. If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians they could do it in 2, maybe 3 days. But they haven’t.

Their sole mission is to kill Hamas who purposely keep putting women and children in the way and saving the hostages. Remember the hostages?

Checked the body count recently, Capital Retro?

You wish to declare that no Jewish settler has appeared on Palestinian lands, that no Jewish politician has called for takeover and settlement of the entire territory?

If you think claims of genocide are “crap” then you have the analyses of a lot of distinct groups and countries to counter. Your text makes you a shill for hard right Jewish propaganda.

I guess that is in keeping with your general views.

@Penfold
Translation of Penfold’s tripe: “Any Israeli sycophant should agree with Netanyahu … blah … blah … 🤥 … blah … just ask the only two people objecting to what the majority of countries have done, or are proposing to do, with respect to Palestinian recognition”

JS you’re back. I would have thought a bloke of your intellect would still be at the productivity round table helping Jimmy formulate the next round of nation-crippling policies. Maybe he gave you a leave pass.

Regardless, your post is a little hard to comprehend. “Any Israeli sycophant should agree with Netanyahu … blah … blah”. We’re discussing Albanese here, perhaps the “blah” was the highlight of your contribution.

Siding with those lovely Hamas people again, not a place most normal people would want to go JS.

Any sensible Australian knows that both Hamas AND the Israeli PM are terrorists and both should be condemned. This conflict has going on for decades and both sides are at fault.

Penfold lying again. In seeking an end to the fighting and the humanitarian crisis no one is siding with Hamas or terrorists …although you were super keen to echo what you thought were Hamas talking points when you the believed it was a win against the government…once a gain demonstrating a complete lack of intellectual rigor and morals. Shameful stuff Penfold.

@justsaying it really makes you wonder when the only man implicated in a list that may or may not exist, is also the only sycophant. Penfold, have you visited the Caribbean by any chance?

Well, aside from any question of morality, Israel’s novel interpretations of the rules of war as they apply to the civil administrative elements of an organisation with an armed wing that rules territory without being a recognised state would be extremely useful to the PRC in the event of a war over Taiwan, while the expansive definition of “participating in hostilities”, the new interpretation of the permissible

Oops, accidentally hit send: aside from how the PRC could apply the argument that everyone who works for the ROC government is part of a militant organisation, or that if you’re not fighting someone you recognise as a state it’s not a war and thus nothing counts as war crimes, some of the other novel interpretations of the laws of armed conflict are not beneficial to Australia.

Anyway, whether a country is democratic or not is significantly less important than whether they’re beneficial to us. Trump is no friend to anyone except his donors and his personal partygoers (but his friendship doesn’t get you everything, just ask his friend Jeff).

Penfold, the Australian Jewish community have criticised Netanyahu for his comments. Do you feel that you might have jumped on the wrong bandwagon in your rush to have a go at Albanese?

“Do you feel that you might have jumped on the wrong bandwagon in your rush to have a go at Albanese?”

Penfold literally echoed the supposed endorsement of Hamas because he thought that was a win in the culture wars…not for a second did he apply any intellectual rigour, he didn’t even consider that any unsolicited endorsement from a terrorist organisation should be dismissed out of hand, or even consider if it made sense at all given Labor had specifically and clearly excluded Hamas from any version of Palestine that would be recognised by Australia, and as it turns out it was fake anyway. And he didn’t for a second consider apologising, because ethics and morals are as useless to culture warriors as the truth. Shameful stuff.

megsy – spoken like a true ABC consumer. They love viewing things through a hard-left perspective and spend their huge taxpayer funding seeking anyone who will criticise Israel. The few Jewish people in Australia who speak out in support of Hamas are their favourites and probably on speed dial.

Netanyahu is by no means faultless but what would you do if a bunch of murderous thugs invaded your home ? Would you sit back and throw out the welcome mat ?

William – your comments beg the question – of what value to Australia is recognising a terrorist group and rewarding their actions ?

JS – it’s impressive that you’re able to recognise sarcasm, there’s a first !

Penfold, it’s interesting that you asked the question “what would you do if a bunch of murderous thugs invaded your home ? Would you sit back and throw out the welcome mat ?”

Are you talking about Palestine in the 1940s? (King David Hotel anyone?)

UNOFFICIAL

megsy if we’re now going back to 1948 both Jewish and Arabic people had lived on the lands for thousands of years so neither group had exclusive claims to the land. The King David hotel bombing was hardly the first incident. For 20 years after 1948 Jordan and Eqypt administered some of the land Palestinians claim so arguably Israel has a greater right to the area.

Israel has tried to live in peace for almost 80 years, though the efforts of their neighbours in 1967 and 1973 made that difficult. Then of course Black September came along with Arafat, Saddam, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and other peace loving Arabic groups who loudly declare their aim of wiping Israel off the map. Remember Gerald Bull ?

I notice Netanyahu has had another swipe at Albanese today. But at least Albo can rest in comfort that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority love him. Is this the lowest diplomatic point for any Australian Prime Minister in history ?

@Penfold
“what value to Australia is recognising a terrorist group”
There is no value, because Australia is not doing it.

Perhaps you should just stick to sarcasm, instead of continuing to perpetuate this lie, Penfold🤥🤥.

It clearly demonstrates you have nothing in your arsenal but lies. As has been stated on many occasions, Australia is joining the majority of nations, that have recognised, or soon will recognise, Palestinian statehood – with the non-involvement of the declared terrorist organisation, Hamas, being a condition.

But hey, just keep publishing the lies, Penfold🤥🤥, as they certainly strike a chord with your fellow Israeli sychophants on here.

@Penfold
“The few Jewish people in Australia who speak out in support of Hamas are their favourites and probably on speed dial”
Tell me is that another one of your attempts at sarcasm? Or do you know, for a fact, that Daniel Aghion, President of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, is a supporter of Hamas?

That’s a rhetorical question, Penfold🤥🤥, because it’s clearly just another of your sycophantic lies.

JS – very sorry to burst your bubble but even if you dispute Albanese is supporting Hamas (he says he isn’t but the truth is quite different) there’s a very inconvenient truth for you in all this.

Albanese has said that he supports a Palestinian state led by the Palestinian Authority (who have promised to “disarm”, lol).

The Palestinian Authority is majority controlled by Fatah. Do you know who co-founded Fatah ? Lovely chap by the name of Yasser Arafat. He also founded the PLO and Black September.

Now JS you may recall Black September. They came to prominence at the 1972 Munich Olympics. There’s even a film you might have watched about it.

So by supporting the PA and Fatah, our nation is now supporting Arafat, Black September, the PLO and all the hideous activities they’ve been involved in.

Something you seem very proud of.

Feel free to call people liars, but maybe do some research first next time.

“Feel free to call people liars, but maybe do some research first next time.”

Claiming Labor support Hamas is a demonstrable and shameful lie. You don’t get to repeatedly post this lie and then claim to be the aggrieved party Penfold.

Penfold’s claim that Albanese is supporting Hamas is false. The government’s statement is clear, unequivocal, and consistent with the positions of other major nations beyond Israel and USA.

Penfold then tries to draw a long bow to claim a continuity to Hamas from Yasser Arafat, who along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin won the Nobel Peace Prize in the 90s for agreeing the Oslo accords as a framework for peace, much the same as Irish terrorist groups on both sides eventually agreed peace in Ireland later in the 1990s after centuries of conflict. They set aside the past and have stuck to their agreements.

Unfortunately, amongst other problems, people like Netanyahu and Rabin claimed a loophole to give them the entire Jordan valley, while promoting Hamas as opposition to the by that time less radical PLO, helping to bring on the conditions of today.

Penfold could of course draw his bow still further to blame Salah Ad-Din during the crusades, or Cyrus or Nebuchadnezzar thousands of years ago.

People who hold only grudges neither make nor find peace.

@Penfold
Lot of deflection about other organisations there, Penfold🤥🤥, but the discussion is about Hamas.

I called you a liar, because you have clearly stated on multiple occasions that the Albanese and/or the Australian government support Hamas. No research needed.

As for the Palestinian Authority? As I pointed out to someone else on another thread, out of the IRA, another declared terrorist organisation, came the political arm, the Sinn Fein – which is now the major party in the Northern Ireland government. Nobody has ever condoned the actions of the IRA, in slaughtering innocent people, but history showed, that disarming the fundamentalists led to a peaceful (of sorts) outcome in Nothern Ireland.

Just as Sinn Fein are a legitimate political organistion, so is the Palestinian Authority. Both have chequered histories but that does not deny their current legitimacy.

No worries Axon, let’s talk about the President of the Palestinian Authority then, Mahmoud Abbas. 20 years into a four year term. Promises to lay down the guns. Also former Chairman of the PLO and a great mate of Arafat. So great, in fact, one of his sons was named after Yasser Arafat.

Responsible for fund raising for the PLO. Helped fund the Munich Olympic operation in 1972 (apparently unknowingly). May have once worked for the KGB, codename “Krotov”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

There are some indications in the link that he may have softened over the years but who knows.

The long bow has become a very short one Axon. 1 + 1 – 1 indeed = 1.

Pretty weak response there JS. Here’s your comment: “what value to Australia is recognising a terrorist group” There is no value, because Australia is not doing it.

Australia, via this increasingly international pariah of a PM is doing just that.

No Penfold, I will not indulge your repeated attempts to change the subject from your utterly false claim about Australian foreign policy.

Your bitter ramblings have no bearing on that though they make very clear that you are unable to engage with my other point, or reality.

Talk to yourself, Penfold.

Which other point Axon – Salah Ad-Din, Cyrus or Nebuchadnezzar ?

It’s true Albanese claims he doesn’t support Hamas. For the past almost two years he could have fooled me, and certainly has you. That he has now come out and publicly declared that he is anti-Israel and pro the Palestinian Authority is a shock to nobody besides his blinkered disciples. Do you know any ?

And the PA has its roots buried deep in terror groups and activities, that is unquestionable. Its leader is effectively a dictator with the support of only 16% of Palestinians per a recent survey. But our Albo’s going to make him a hero.

It’s hardly any long bow to claim Albanese supports and is rewarding some very dodgy and brutal groups.

And how about Tony Burke – our Home Affairs Minister – “Strength is not measured by how many people you can blow up or how many children you can leave hungry,”. This is about as diplomatically loopy as it gets.

@Penfold
“international pariah of a PM”
To whom is he a pariah, Penfold🤥🤥? … and the lies keep coming, as Bibi and Trump are hardly “the international community”.

Yet Albanese’s government is in step with many other countries, actually the majority of countries, which (as previously stated) have already recognised, or are proposing to recognise, Palestinian statehood. Perhaps you can just issue one of your “didn’t happen or won’t happen” pronouncemeants and those recognitions will just disappear.

Penfold still taking his riding orders directly from Bibi’s office & now claiming its all a media beat up.

The leader of the free world isn’t part of the international community JS ? There’s a new one. Though your dreary claims of “lies” doesn’t seem to have changed despite the fact that Albanese is supporting and rewarding known terror groups.

Hey did you get a chance to google the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, Fatah, Black September, the PLO or Yasser Arafat as yet ? Them’s Albo’s buddies.

franky – there’s certainly been some media beat ups, depends which media we’re talking about. The ABC are having their usual blinkered shocker. But not as bad as the New York Times who used the image of a disabled child to try to blame Israel for blocking food. Probably the lowest point of journalism during the whole conflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzx11GyCGdc

@Penfold
I used the highlighted term “the international community”, to emphasise that Trump and Bibi are not the sole members of the international community – for, as I went on to point out the majority of other nations which are about to recognise, or have recognised, a Palestinian state. Obviously the nuances of context are something you don’t have the capacity to grasp, Penfold🤦

As for “The leader of the free world”? While you might swallow that ludicrous hyperbole, hook, line and sinker, in the real “free world”, we have something called elections. You may have heard of them – there was one in Australia in May 2022, but you are probably still too traumatised, over the result, to remember.

Nevertheless, while Trump may be YOUR “leader of the free world”, the general feeling I get, is that (arguably) he isn’t even perceived to be such a leader in his own country, let alone by the rest of the real “free world”.

As I said in another thread, the IRA was a declared terrorist organisation, and that despite their damnable, by association, history, Sinn Fein, the former IRA’s political arm, is now the major party in the Northern Ireland government. So, perhaps you can confine your cherry picking to the same garbage bin as your lies … they really are just making you look foolish, and even more desperate to push your Israeli sycophancy.

Well JS perhaps if you want to comment of the free world 🌎 you should first introduce yourself to the real world.

The President of the USA, whether you like him or not, has always been considered the leader of the free world.

@Penfold
“The President of the USA … has always been considered the leader of the free world”
“considered” is a subjective assessment, and not fact, Penfold🤥🤥. I’m not so sure that the “real world” would subscribe to it these days.

Perfold proves he misses, mostly just avoids, both Australian foreign policy and any history around how wars are created, persisted, and resolved.

Feel free to google “leader of the free world” JS, clearly you’ll be shocked at the results. Here’s one of them.

https://dgardner.substack.com/p/leader-of-the-free-world

Perhaps you’ll next argue that night is, in fact, day.

Shame on you Penfold. You are using some biased or inaccurate reporting as a cover all excuse to pretend there is no starvation or indiscriminate killing perpetrated on innocent Palesrinian civilians. Even a large number of Israelis see through this nonsense.

“leader of the free world”, a largely meaningless title that comes with no extra power and no extra respect….if Trump is the leader of the free world he’s not doing a very good job because the BRICS nations keep adding new members.

The culture wars clown universe really is quite something.

Been away for a while. I note that JustSaying continues to apply his ad hominem tactics of abusing contributors in the time-honoured trolling manner. They just weaken your case JS. Try to drop the personal abuse mate.

Humblest apologies JS, discussing multiple issues at the same time can be somewhat overwhelming. For clarity, the issues of the fabricated NYT reporting and the leader of the free world are, indeed, quite separate and unrelated.

It’s great that you’re now talking up democracy. Did you know Israel is the only middle eastern democracy and the Palestinian Authority has refused to hold elections for 16 years ?

franky – nope, not doing any of that. In your desperation to take offence there’s quite some overreach been applied there. Btw it wasn’t biased or inaccurate reporting, it was an outright lie. If you choose to read some less partial reporting you might even learn that Hamas not only block aid but steal it too. Perhaps you’d care to comment on Hamas command centres and ammunition repositories that were built under Gazan hospitals.

John – thanks and agree with your sentiments. The abuse has become humorous but the underlying double standards are next level. If you want an example and a laugh, go and have a look at the “disparagement” comment in response to Karl on this article:

https://region.com.au/city-camp-highlights-stretched-services-struggle-with-homeless-surge/896805/#comments

@John…none of that is true.

@John
Naturally, you are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps read a bit broader before you paint one individual with your tainted brush.

@Penfold
Well, we know that hypocrisy is another of your hallmarks, Penfold🤥🤥, but your faux outrage because your lies have been called out 😱, takes it to record levels. I and others, simply return what you dish out. However, we don’t complain, as many of the matters do evoke emotion. Yet you have the audacity to accuse me of double standards, when clearly they are the only standards you possess.

” For clarity”, because franky22 had addressed it, I didn’t even mention the NYT article … try reading my comment before you go off half cocked. I referred to the very article, you cited, to support your contention that the US President is “the leader of the free world”. So far from being “quite separate and unrelated” my comment was totally on topic and it seems you are the one being overwhelmed by “multiple topics”.

So – to put the the topic of the “leader of the free world” to rest, I have a simple question for you:
Which country/countries have formally acknowledged the US President is the “leader of the free world”?

Well JS presumably you’d claim Xi Jinping is the leader of the free world so your confusion is understandable.

As for double standards well you remind us all about the famous Groucho Marx observation – “Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them, I have others”. 🙂

“Well JS presumably you’d claim Xi Jinping is the leader of the free world so your confusion is understandable.”

Yet again Penfold goes the strawman when he’s losing.

So what about all the other terrorist organisations that both the US and Israrl have historically propped up? I mean, they have been linked to every single terrorist organisation in the middle east. Including hamas. They overthrew democratically elected leaders in place of dictators. So to argue that even hamas has no place, well the israelis themselves thought they did. Penfold, what exactly do you want our government to do?

Support our allies and support democracy TG.

Be more specific than that, penfold. What do you want us to do? Do you want troops deployed?

Australia invade the middle east with troops ? That’s a bit bizarre TG. Supporting our allies and democracy doesn’t need troops, it needs words.

Albo took Australia from 60% supporting the voice to 60% opposing it, such is the genius of the bloke. It’s pretty clear he won’t be changing the minds of too many Palestinians.

Turning your back on friends in life generally speaks far more about yourself than it does your friends.

@Penfold
“Turning your back on friends”
You continue with your hyperbole as if it’s fact, Penfold.

The majority of Australia’s allies (i.e. friends), not to mention a majority of nations, have recognised, or are considering recognising, a Palestinian State. The fact that this is out of step with Trump and Bibi, says more about where your layalties lie.

Nevertheless, other than hyperbole and lies (like Australia is supporting Hamas 🤦‍♂️), you have brought nothing to this matter.

I’ll leave you to have the last say, as dealing with your jaundiced partisanship is far too wearisome.