Canberra Protest against Israeli attacks on Gaza Flotilla

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

can’t be arsed doing your due diligence or planning a proper op based on decent intel. You land and find yourself in the middle of a clusterf*ck. Do you get back on your chopper and retreat (in deserved disgrace) to maybe think things over a bit better, or just start shooting civilians?

Your credibility and claims to objectivity fade by the post. Have you even looked into this whole thing besides scanning the odd article?

Their planning worked perfectly on the other five ships and they rappelled down to the deck from a helicopter overhead. If you can explain how they were supposed to get back on board an aircraft in flight while being attacked then I’m sure every military in the world will be clamoring for your expertise.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Were the people on that ship responsible for all the misery caused by terrorist elements in the West Bank and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or does the doctrine of collective guilt only apply to Arabs? But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

No they weren’t responsible and didn’t deserve to die. Gosh, see how easy that was. It’s something that the good Cap’n (and apparently you despite your statement to the contrary)is incapable of though.

Paranoid Zionist? What? Because I was disgusted with the the good Cap’n stating that if all Jews were ‘eliminated’ then it would be ‘good riddance’?

Pathetic attempt at legal analysis? When did I claim to be a lawyer? I did some basic research on the internet and posted what I found. And with my limited legal knowledge it seemed to be solid.

Splitting hairs? Yeah because the fact that they were attacked was just a minor piffling detail, right?

Please pardon my mistake, Woody. I obviously mistook you for a reasonable human being who could discuss a subject with a degree of intelligence.

As someone said earlier, it really IS pointless isn’t it?

(And look at all us night owls. We should be doing this at the Phoenix.)

“You board the ferry and are attacked by the passengers with knives and iron bars. You respond with deadly force via semi-automatic pistol fire. Are your actions justified?”

If you want to split hairs:

You – highly trained commandos who claim to carry on the legacy of the tactical f*cking geniuses who pulled off the utter brilliance that was Operation Entebbe – can’t be arsed doing your due diligence or planning a proper op based on decent intel. You land and find yourself in the middle of a clusterf*ck. Do you get back on your chopper and retreat (in deserved disgrace) to maybe think things over a bit better, or just start shooting civilians?

That’s tops Trashman, but for the blockade to be legal, there are rules about it unfairly targeting civilians rather then the military.

Interesting that you state that Hamas didn’t challenge the blockade in the court. You refer to them almost like they are a legitimate government…

Are you and yours in part responsible for all the misery caused by our government in the last 200 years and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or is the doctrine of collective guilt only to be applied to Jews? But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

Were the people on that ship responsible for all the misery caused by terrorist elements in the West Bank and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or does the doctrine of collective guilt only apply to Arabs? But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

So, you would like to nuke everyone who isn’t ‘decent and peace loving’?

In a heartbeat. The only difference between my vision and Israel’s wildest fantasies is that while a bunch of people die in both, it’s the right people for the right reasons in mine, and there’s peace afterward. Beats the sh.t outof ‘But the sky fairy promised us our own country and told us we could put anybody there first to the sword’ and a war that will never end.

On the face of it the law seems to be with the Israelis. The blockade of Gaza was legally declared under article 42 of the UN charter

What is it with paranoid Zionists and claiming UN privileges when it suits them and ignoring them when it doesn’t? The UN maintains that Israel is an occupying power and in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The UN Human Rights Council requested that Israel lift the blockade, the 15th time in less than two years it had admonished Israel about the Occupied Territories. Israel expelled a UN Special Rapporteur. The Secretary-General of the UN has stated that the blockade has caused ‘unacceptable suffering’ and that families were living in ‘unacceptable, unsustainable conditions’ as a direct result of the blockade. A UN fact finding mission characterised the blockade as a war crime and a crime against humanity. Those are the facts – go read them yourself on the UN website – and your armchair international lawyering doesn’t change them one bit.

If you’d prefer a point-by-point demolition of your pathetic attempt at a ‘legal analysis’, here’s what an actual lawyer – not some toss-artist who plays one on the intarwebs – has to say. The short story – you’re wrong.

Trashman said :

Captain RAAF said :

Trashman said :

So tell me something Cap’n. If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you and your family on the justification that ‘you’ stole their land and that ‘you’ have been persecuting, abusing and murdering them for the past 200 years would you also be saying, “Fair cop. It serves us right.”?

That’s a hard one mate….are these Aborigines that are breaking into my home bullet proof?

It’s a simple question Cap’n. Are you and yours in part responsible for all the misery caused by our government in the last 200 years and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or is the doctrine of collective guilt only to be applied to Jews?

But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

To be fair, if the Captain has been murdered, as you say, an absence of reply is pretty much all you should expect.

00Daniel00 said :

#80p1 / #82Gungahlin Al

Agreed on the idea that boarding the ship was a bad move.

Were the people on the ship justified in repelling the soldiers? That’s one of the issues here.

The one thing I haven’t figured out yet is whether the soldiers were lawfully allowed to be there or not. Is the blockade legitimate? If so, is Israel allowed to conduct search missions on board vessels trying to get through a blockade, in international waters?

If the soldiers were lawfully allowed to board and search, then the humanitarians were in the wrong to attack them.

If the soldiers should not have been on the ship, then the humanitarians have the high ground.

Anyone able to give a solid answer to that?

On the face of it the law seems to be with the Israelis.

The blockade of Gaza was legally declared under article 42 of the UN charter. Hamas never legally challenged it. As a result, under Article 67(a) of the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (12 June 1994), Israel is legally entitled to enforce that blockade against merchant vessels of neutral powers, and to attack those vessels which knowingly seek to breach the blockade, whether in international waters or not.

In fact, if a vessel makes known it’s intention to run a blokade it is technically in breach of the law from the moment it leaves port.

Jim Jones said :

Not that this is a simple case, but it is worth pointing out that an Australian journalist present (who was shot in the leg) reported that the shooting started *before* the choppers had landed.

If that was from the ABC report then they got their facts mixed up. There was only one Australian who got shot in the leg and he was an activist. Not a journalist. If what he said is correct (assuming the ABC haven’t gotten THAT wrong as well) it certainly changes the whole situation.

Captain RAAF said :

Trashman said :

So tell me something Cap’n. If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you and your family on the justification that ‘you’ stole their land and that ‘you’ have been persecuting, abusing and murdering them for the past 200 years would you also be saying, “Fair cop. It serves us right.”?

That’s a hard one mate….are these Aborigines that are breaking into my home bullet proof?

It’s a simple question Cap’n. Are you and yours in part responsible for all the misery caused by our government in the last 200 years and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or is the doctrine of collective guilt only to be applied to Jews?

But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

“If I could snap my fingers tomorrow and have all the decent, peace-loving people [that would be people like you, I presume WMC?]on both sides of the ‘border’ a new country and simultaneously nuke the rest from orbit, I would. I’d be sure to zap all those who try to reduce this to a black and white, ‘for us or against us in all things’ position to the nuke zone first.

So, you would like to nuke everyone who isn’t ‘decent and peace loving’? In your self righteousness, you obviously missed the homour.

Ari said :

Yep, I knew it was a waste of time.

truly.

I believe the attack…sorry, boarding took place while the ship was in International waters, I’m not an expert on the legalities or ramifications of boarding a ship in that situation but if the Israelis had the time to wait, and surely they must have, they should have waited until the ship was in their territory, would have added to the justification for their actions (the boarding, not the killing)?

Now it appears the activists were well prepared for a Israeli boarding attempt by the look of the variety of weapons but having had some experience of being in dark, low-light close quarter situations (I’m sure some of you can have some fun with this..), anyone, especially moronic civilians, could easily be excused for thinking that the paintball weilding SF boys fast roping onto the deck shooting little red balls of ink at people and lobbing flash bangs willy nilly, were actually carrying automatic rifles and grenades and had come to kill them all. Trust me, in those situations people will see either what they want to see or what they fear most. I’ve seen it a million times.

In that situation, when you think balaclava wearing Israeli commandos or Indiginous aborigines if you like, Trashman, are kicking your door in to come and do you and yours harm, you’ll be doing whatever it takes to kill them all.

As for Israel salvaging something of their reputation over all this now that it is clear they fell into a trap, yeah sure most governments of the world will agree that they were set up but how many turban and hijab wearing camel jockeys even watch the news or keep track of events on the internets? All they’ll know is that Israel murdered more innocents (because they’ll only get one side of the story), and they’ll be lining up in the streets for their opportunity at an afterlife full of virgins.

p1 said :

Anyone able to give a solid answer to that?

It Depends™

The legality of the action hinges on many things, one of the big ones being the legality of the blockade. And one of the sticking points with that is that the Israelis are not just blockading weapons, but “duel purpose” items with could have military application. Unfortunately for the residents of the Gaza Strip, this includes things like cement and timber. So, if you think that it is alright for the state of Israel to keep the residents of Gaza living in a trashed city with no chance to rebuild, and no opportunities for employment of prosperity…

Items blocked from entering Gaza include chocolate, pens, fruit, fresh meat, musical instruments, paper, newspapers, toys … and so on. Oh wouldn’t the terrorists like to get their hands on … fruit.

Woody:

Can you grasp the idea that I might be against, say, suicide bombings by Palestinian extremists on the one hand but also against Israeli troops shooting civilians in international waters on the other? Can you understand how it’s possible to deplore particular actions by a government without denigrating an entire people, particularly a people spread all over the world who, as I said above, hold all sorts of views about all sorts of things, some of whom also deplore said actions?

Yes I certainly can grasp that idea as it is one that I share. Unfortunately for every one person who is willing to condemn senseless killing on both sides there seems to be five who will only condemn Israeli violence but seek to justify it by the Palestinians. The comments on this blog and many others since the flotilla shooting prove that.

And with respect, the scenario that I put forward in my previous post was completely appropriate for the point I was trying to get across to the good Cap’n. Simply that the idea that you can welcome (or be indifferent to) the “elimination of Israel and the Jews” (HIS words) based on the decisions and actions of their government is nothing short of monstrous.

Taken in isolation, the example that you proposed is valid but flawed.

“You board the ferry and start shooting passengers”

That implies that the commandos landed on the ship and immediatly started shooting indiscriminately. Personally I don’t believe that happened. Not because I approve of the action but because it makes little to no sense. The other five ships were all boarded with no casualties. Why the discrepancy on the Mavi Marmara? The idea propagated by some that the Israelis allowed themselves to be attacked in order to produce sympathetic media spin is laughable. The Israelis would have known that any injury (let alone a death) to even one of the flotilla passengers would result in the storm or deservedly negative media coverage that we have seen. The Israeli military has released video footage that proves at least some of the passengers attacked. However they need to release any video of the incident confiscated from passenger sources if they want to avoid claims of a cover-up.

So in fairness to all sides, Woody I think that your last two lines should read:

“You board the ferry and are attacked by the passengers with knives and iron bars. You respond with deadly force via semi-automatic pistol fire. Are your actions justified?”

The simple answer to that is, yes. According to more than one account the soldiers were outnumbered. Knives and iron bars can kill as surely as a gun. The only difference is in their range. If I remember correctly, several of the American servicement killed in the ‘Blackhawk Down’ incident were overwhelmed by mobs with similar rudimentary weapons. And those soldiers were armed with fully automatic combat firearms.

A better question would be, “Was the boarding action itself justified?”

Anyone able to give a solid answer to that?

It Depends™

The legality of the action hinges on many things, one of the big ones being the legality of the blockade. And one of the sticking points with that is that the Israelis are not just blockading weapons, but “duel purpose” items with could have military application. Unfortunately for the residents of the Gaza Strip, this includes things like cement and timber. So, if you think that it is alright for the state of Israel to keep the residents of Gaza living in a trashed city with no chance to rebuild, and no opportunities for employment of prosperity…

#80p1 / #82Gungahlin Al

Agreed on the idea that boarding the ship was a bad move.

Were the people on the ship justified in repelling the soldiers? That’s one of the issues here.

The one thing I haven’t figured out yet is whether the soldiers were lawfully allowed to be there or not. Is the blockade legitimate? If so, is Israel allowed to conduct search missions on board vessels trying to get through a blockade, in international waters?

If the soldiers were lawfully allowed to board and search, then the humanitarians were in the wrong to attack them.

If the soldiers should not have been on the ship, then the humanitarians have the high ground.

Anyone able to give a solid answer to that?

TheVirulentOne said:

“It’s always amusing to see how quickly the anti-semites and terrorist supporters can mobilise a protest. Not to mention how their networks quickly fill the internet and other media with their pro-terrorist lies.

Typically this board is full of the same. Ridiculous claims about accomodating people who were “dispossessed”, the racist claims of “riding the coat-tails of the Holocaust”, the laughable assertion that the only true democracy in the Middle East is “a terrorist state”, or how “regular coast guard” should have put their lives at risk to board a ship under the control of international terrorists. “

wow, biased much?

DBCooper said :

Glad I’m not Jewish it sounds like alot of people are ready to fire up the ovens?

The Israelis didn’t anticipate getting bumrushed if they had or if they had intended to cause trouble and shoot people they would have left the non-lethal PC riotgear on the helicopter . The initial troops didn’t even have rifles they had non-lethal OC pepperball guns and less lethal 37 mm launchers. They killed them with their pistols after getting their asses kicked.What were the “peace activists” thinking beating up special forces troops with iron bars(lethal force)? How did they expect them to react? They might have well of used guns against the boarding team at least it would have made for better television.

Not that this is a simple case, but it is worth pointing out that an Australian journalist present (who was shot in the leg) reported that the shooting started *before* the choppers had landed.

Trashman said :

So tell me something Cap’n. If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you and your family on the justification that ‘you’ stole their land and that ‘you’ have been persecuting, abusing and murdering them for the past 200 years would you also be saying, “Fair cop. It serves us right.”?

That’s a hard one mate….are these Aborigines that are breaking into my home bullet proof?

Glad I’m not Jewish it sounds like alot of people are ready to fire up the ovens?

The Israelis didn’t anticipate getting bumrushed if they had or if they had intended to cause trouble and shoot people they would have left the non-lethal PC riotgear on the helicopter . The initial troops didn’t even have rifles they had non-lethal OC pepperball guns and less lethal 37 mm launchers. They killed them with their pistols after getting their asses kicked.What were the “peace activists” thinking beating up special forces troops with iron bars(lethal force)? How did they expect them to react? They might have well of used guns against the boarding team at least it would have made for better television.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you

Bad case study. Try this one:

Some Aborigines and their non-Aboriginal supporters take a ferry loaded with supplies to the lake foreshore near Questacon, intending to supply nearby the Tent Embassy. You have evidence that some residents at the Tent Embassy believe you invaded their land and that they’d like it back. You also have evidence that a very small minority of people residing at the Tent Embassy have committed acts of violence and damaged property, and plan to do so in the future. Of course, you’ve also committed acts of violence against them. You board the ferry and start shooting the passengers. Are your actions justified?

Do the Aborigines have nuclear weapons?

If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you

Bad case study. Try this one:

Some Aborigines and their non-Aboriginal supporters take a ferry loaded with supplies to the lake foreshore near Questacon, intending to supply nearby the Tent Embassy. You have evidence that some residents at the Tent Embassy believe you invaded their land and that they’d like it back. You also have evidence that a very small minority of people residing at the Tent Embassy have committed acts of violence and damaged property, and plan to do so in the future. Of course, you’ve also committed acts of violence against them. You board the ferry and start shooting the passengers. Are your actions justified?

00Daniel00 said :

The people on the ships were armed with weapons (sticks, knives etc.). This seriously detracts from their argument that the killings were illegitimate. I know that if I were being aggressively approached by a large number of people with sticks and knives, then I’d be fearing for my safety.

Do you realise the hypocrisy of this statement? Let me rephrase it to demonstrate:

“The people on the helicopters were clearly armed with weapons (machine guns, grenades and teargas). This seriously detracts from their argument that the killings were legitimate. I know that if I were being aggressively approached by a large number of commandos with machine guns and grenades, then I’d be fearing for my safety and grabbing anything I could to try to defend myself.”

Finally, I’m not Palestinian but I do support the idea of a Palestinian state. However not necessarily at the expense of it’s neighbours…

WMC hits the nail on the head … again.

00Daniel00 said :

From the accounts I’ve read (both pro and anti Palestinian), the people on the ships were armed with weapons (sticks, knives etc.). This seriously detracts from their argument that the killings were illegitimate. I know that if I were being aggressively approached by a large number of people with sticks and knives, then I’d be fearing for my safety.

And for this reason I don’t hold it against the individual soldiers who were on the deck being thumper over the head and defended themselves.

All the people up the chain of command (the senior person on the chopper to the Prime-minister of Israel), on the other hand, are guilty of a range of things, from stupidity to terrorism.

While it may have been a stupid move,(and got them shot as a result), confronting armed people boarding your vessel without permission or authority (other then their own “national interest”) is hardly what I would call an unreasonable act. And I would like to see a ship on the planet with ten people on it which doesn’t contain knives and steal poles, let alone one carrying 600+.

OK, since we’re not generalizing anymore, substitute ’supporters of the Palestinians’ instead of leftist.

You can oppose particular actions by the Israeli government and more extremist Zionist views without being ‘supporters of the Palestinians’. Not that the words in quotes actually mean anything anway – it’s not like they’re robots who all look and think and act alike. Like their Jewish counterparts, Palestinians hold diverse views on a wide range of issues and act accordingly. The rest of us are free to agree or disagree with those views and to support or condemn those actions on a case-by-case basis.

But I don’t agree with the simplistic ‘Jews bad, opponents of the Jews good’ paradigm

That’s a straw man. Nobody here has said anything like that. Can you grasp the idea that I might be against, say, suicide bombings by Palestinian extremists on the one hand but also against Israeli troops shooting civilians in international waters on the other? Can you understand how it’s possible to deplore particular actions by a government without denigrating an entire people, particularly a people spread all over the world who, as I said above, hold all sorts of views about all sorts of things, some of whom also deplore said actions?

If I could snap my fingers tomorrow and have all the decent, peace-loving people on both sides of the ‘border’ magically transported to a new country and simultaneously nuke the rest from orbit, I would. I’d be sure to zap all those who try to reduce this to a black and white, ‘for us or against us in all things’ position to the nuke zone first.

“If being amenable to the elimination of Israel and the Jews at the hands of the people they have persecuted, abused, murdered and displayed downright antipathy and hatred for since 1948 makes me a jew hating leftist then call me one”

No Cap’n it just makes you a deeply sick individual. So every Jew; every man woman and child of them is just asking for it are they? If they were “eliminated” as you so sanatizingly put it (sounds so much better than “murdered”) then “it serves them right”. Persecution, abuse, murder, antipathy, hatred. Gosh none of those things have been aimed at the Jews before have they? I mean only for about the last 1000 years or so but who is counting? They have learnt well from the rest of us.

So tell me something Cap’n. If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you and your family on the justification that ‘you’ stole their land and that ‘you’ have been persecuting, abusing and murdering them for the past 200 years would you also be saying, “Fair cop. It serves us right.”?

My opinion, for what it’s worth

From the accounts I’ve read (both pro and anti Palestinian), the people on the ships were armed with weapons (sticks, knives etc.). This seriously detracts from their argument that the killings were illegitimate. I know that if I were being aggressively approached by a large number of people with sticks and knives, then I’d be fearing for my safety.

I totally understand Israel’s wish to inspect the ships cargo. It would be foolish for a country at war to allow their enemy to be supplied with weapons.

The protestors took a risk. They were warned that action would be taken if they continued their course. I believe that they have to accept some responsibility for what has happened. They decided to call the bluff, and they lost (or did they lose? some would argue the publicity has been very good to their cause).

Finally, I’m not Jewish but I do support the idea of a Jewish state. However not necessarily at the expense of it’s neighbours…..

JimJones saud “…constant invocation of ‘the left’ by some posters in here clearly has no relation to reality and has one purpose: to label anyone on one side of an argument as ideologically driven and therefore clearly biased and wrong…”

Well that’s a bit of a turnaround for you Jim, who usually characterizes his opponents right down to the TV shows they might watch. OK, since we’re not generalizing anymore, substitute ‘supporters of the Palestinians’ instead of leftist.

CaptainRAAF said: ” you [the Jews] don’t become that despised without good reason “
Now we’re getting to the nub, Captain. And what happened to all the anti-Semites? They became ‘pro-Palestinian’.

I’m not saying the Palestinians don’t have a case. I think the Jews have a case as well, and good reason to be skittish with their neighbors. But I don’t agree with the simplistic ‘Jews bad, opponents of the Jews good’ paradigm. And I certainly don’t think supporters of the Palestinian cause do their argument any favour by not acknowledging Israel’s right to exist.

The history of the state of Israel isn’t all that different to the European history of Australia -we are both a culture imposed by an imperialist state on what was considered ‘unoccupied’land. We both have treated the people we dispossessed pretty badly.

The main difference is time. And the fact that they are Jews, it seems.

justin heywood said :

Captain Aardvark, RAAF said: if that [large scale elimination of the Jews] is the case, good riddance to them!

OK, so you don’t advocate genocide of the Jewish people yourself, but it would serve them right if someone else wiped them out. Nice one.

I’m quite happy for Israel to exist, just as I am to see obscure mountain head hunting tribes in PNG exist, they are a long way from where I am and I don’t care about them as long as they play nice with their neighbours, but if they insist on wandering next door to kill the odd group of people or heaven forbid move into the neighboring village, kill, imprison or force out its inhabitants, then I am just as happy to see them wiped from the earth. Makes no difference to me, they’ll still be a long way away from me, my world won’t be any different whether they are here or gone, could’nt care less about their fate, my point was that if they want to continue as they have for the last 60 years, then someday, someone will remove them, simple really.

It’s got nothing to do with them being Jews, it’s all to do with thumbing your nose at the worlds laws, raising them as an issue when it suits you, crying victim when people rally against you and of course being the arbiters of an elimination program yourself when you of all people should know better.

If being amenable to the elimination of Israel and the Jews at the hands of the people they have persecuted, abused, murdered and displayed downright antipathy and hatred for since 1948 makes me a jew hating leftist then call me one, makes no difference to me but I don’t want them eliminated for being what they are, I just see it as a logical conclusion to their actions in an area of the world where they take no prisoners, follow no rules of war or convention and in regards to that outcome I say, serves them right!

If you want my solution to the problem (surprise surprise, it’s not genocide), pick up all the Jews in Israel and ship them back to Poland….oh’, but they don’t want them do they? Nor does France, Germany or any other country in Europe….hmm, you don’t become that despised without good reason.

You could always hit the streets in protest and seek for Israel to be moved to the alternate location offered up by the UK after WW2….if you’re game?

Clown Killer said :

I guess that the Government of Israel will learn, sooner or later, that if they continue to carry on like a bunch of complete twats someones going to come along and rub them out.

Oooooh, you antisemite, terrorist … LEFTY.

UN resolutions are selectively quoted

Says he who was quick to jump on the ‘but the UN says we’re a real country’ bandwagon but conveniently ignore everything the UN has said about Israel since. If you want more than ‘selective quotes’, here’s a list of all the UN Security Council’s resolutions about Israel, and here’s where to go to read the full text of all of them. Just casting your eye down the first list shows that we’ve been anything but ‘selective’.

(By the way – that old chestnut you pulled out about there being ‘no such country’ as Palestine? We can argue the toss about whether it’s true – it’s pure semantics, given the League of Nation’s acknowledgement of the British Mandate, and that your lot sent in the tanks pretty much the minute after a ‘country recognising’ authority came into existence, using border definitions even the WZO recognised – but it was certainly true of Israel not so long ago. Care to explain why ‘no country’ is justification for violence against some people but not yours?)

I guess that the Government of Israel will learn, sooner or later, that if they continue to carry on like a bunch of complete twats someones going to come along and rub them out.

justin heywood said :

you say that this genocide would be justified because they are Jews, and you don’t like them.

Um … who said that?

I can’t see anyone saying that – the closest would be Captain RAAFs statement that Israel has been acting so appallingly that eventually their neighbours will get rid of them. What’s that got to do with ‘not liking Jews’?

justin heywood said :

Here’s the thing I don’t get. The left cause always …

Here’s the thing I don’t get: What has this got to do with ‘the left’?

Are you saying that, on this forum, the representatives of the left are people such as Craig T, Pommy Bastard and Captain RAAF?

Make your argument and all; that’s great. But the constant invocation of ‘the left’ by some posters in here clearly has no relation to reality and has one purpose: to label anyone on one side of an argument as ideologically driven and therefore clearly biased and wrong.

The fact that posters such as Craig T, Pommy Bastard and Captain RAAF are now being labeled as ‘the left’ shows how utterly meaningless this sort of strategy is.

Craig T said “As you see, Israelis themselves have a strong awareness that sooner or later the problem will be solved in the way that Captain RAAF refers to {genocide]. Of course peiople with a dishonest agenda prefer to shoot the messenger”

Er, Craig, the Captain and his ilk aren’t ‘the messenger’, they are the enablers.

Here’s the thing I don’t get. The left cause always assumes the moral high ground in any debate. But here we are talking about the wiping out of an entire nation and it’s inhabitants. You champions of virtue do not condemn this notion. In fact you go further – you say that this genocide would be justified because they are Jews, and you don’t like them.

The capacity for self-delusion among Israel-supporters is astounding.
Apparently I’m a “lefty” now, simply because I am in possession of an objective assessment of the 1948 takeover of Palestine by Zionist terrorists which involved the genocidal “Plan Dalet” ethnic-cleansing of 800,000 people and razing of 400 villages, acts which inform all subsequent events in the middle east including the eventual emulation of zionist terrorism by the arabs in the late 1960s.

A country built on such dubious foundations *could* redeem itself, but Israel has done nothing but dig itself further into a hole through its constant breaches of international law, mass-murders of unarmed civilians, and invasions of its neighbours.

I have an old press cutting here:

“Doubt Israel will exist long-term, says poll

September 07, 2007 09:19pm
Article from: Agence France-Presse

A QUARTER of Jewish Israelis doubt that Israel will exist long-term and more than 70 per cent have a bad assessment of the country’s security situation, an opinion poll revealed today.

When asked if they “felt certain that Israel will exist in the distant future”, 25 per cent of respondents said no and 74 per cent of the respondents said yes, according to the results published in the Yediot Aharonot newspaper.

Only 57 per cent of respondents said it was safer for Jewish people to live in Israel than in the West, compared to 39 per cent who said it was safer in the West or amounted to the same thing.”

As you see, Israelis themselves have a strong awareness that sooner or later the problem will be solved in the way that Captain RAAF refers to. Of course peiople with a dishonest agenda prefer to shoot the messenger.

justin heywood said :

Captain Aardvark, RAAF said: if that [large scale elimination of the Jews] is the case, good riddance to them!

OK, so you don’t advocate genocide of the Jewish people yourself, but it would serve them right if someone else wiped them out. Nice one.

Exactly. Substituting “stiff bikkies” for “good riddence” simply changes his original statement from ‘I welcome the extermination of the Jews’ to ‘Meh! Well if they do get exterminated then it’s their own fault”. And that of course is SOOO much better *rolls eyes*

Captain Aardvark, RAAF said: if that [large scale elimination of the Jews] is the case, good riddance to them!

OK, so you don’t advocate genocide of the Jewish people yourself, but it would serve them right if someone else wiped them out. Nice one.

Captain RAAF said :

Trashman said :

Captain RAAF said :

What I did say, that if it did happen, stiff bikkies for Israel!

No, what you said was that if the Jews were exterminated, “good riddence”.

Gosh I wonder what the phrase, “good riddence” means in common parlance, Cap’n? Lets have a look shall we:

“Used to indicate that a departure, or loss is welcome”

“the act of getting rid of something undesirable or unpleasant”

“an expression of pleasure on being rid of some annoyance”

THAT is what you said about the prospect of the “large scale elimination” of Jews. If you are going to make a statement (no matter how abhorrent) at least have the guts to stand by it and not try to spin your way out of it like some big girls blouse.

Coward.

Frano- I’d be reluctant to place much credence on Greg Sheridan’s articles in the Australian. Remember Rupert Murdoch’s insightful enthusiasm for the Iraq adventure, and how the News Ltd media couldn’t give us enough shock and awe, Iraqi evilness and weapons of mass destruction. It’s not fair and it’s not balanced- it’s Rupert’s propaganda machine in action, cut and pasted from IDF media releases.

And I’d take claims of hidden weapons with a very large grain of salt. Israel needs something like that to bolster its media defenses. Even if the iron bars etc weren’t there to begin with, they’ll be there now- do you think that a government that routinely steals foreigners’ identities is likely to have any qualms about planting evidence to extract itself from the mess it’s got into?

Israel has calculatedly kept Gaza in a hopeless situation; just above the starvation line, but totally deprived of materials that they might use to rebuild or improve their lives, in the hope that the Palestinians will give in and leave. Things like cement and timber are considered ‘dual-use’ ie they might be used to build bunkers, so they aren’t allowed in at all. Even medicines are severely limited. Entry and exit is at the whim of the IDF. This brutal treatment drives popular support for Hamas, as the only form of resistance available, and then Israel comes out saying Ooh! Look! they’re all terrorists! The only way to protect ourselves is to destroy them!

There is much that was good about Israel to begin with, but the drift to the right after 1967 has meant that rather than working to make itself part of the region, it has set itself apart, and embarked on a singular and probably self-destructive journey.

So very amusing to see the lefties spin the same old lines about a complex middle east, not to mention how “international law” and UN resolutions are selectively quoted.

The middle east situation is not complex, anyone who isn’t a blind fanatic can cut through the disingenous crap with barely a glance. Let me educate you again:

1. Hamas was undoubtledly created as a result of the failed PLO leadership during the Intifida; being a political party doesn’t stop them being terrorists.
2. Lebanon has been invaded a number of times due to the fact that it’s been used as a staging ground for terrorist and military attacks (doubtless some of the populace doesn’t support this, but then again a large proportion of the country votes for Hezbollah, a terrorist group funded by Iran and Syria).
3. The only reason that any leftists care about this issue is because the Zionist cause was dropped as a cause celebre by the Soviets when they switched their middle east allegiances to the Arab dictatorships, and since that time the fellow travellers have parroted the party line.

Your family has land titles to properties issued by the Ottoman Empire? Good luck on redeeming those, perhaps when the Islamists in Turkey overthrow the secular government, resurrect the Caliphate and impose Sharia law upon the world you’ll have some chance of reclaiming those properties. Doubtless the Jews who were deported from Iraq post 1948 feel equally aggrieved – perhaps in the Baath-free era they will be able to reclaim their land too?

As my lecturer in Middle East politics wisely said many years ago, “Israel is like a rabid dog, it’s been attacked so many times that it will never trust anyone again.” Which is what everyone should consider when they ask why a Western democracy so readily resorts to force, and pays no heed to so-called international opinion (especially when forums such as the UN can sponsor motions such as “Zionism is Racism”, voted for by exemplars of democracy like Libya, Cuba and Iran).

12o’ish people turned up. More like a candle light vigil. There where speakers. The social anarchists with $5 magazines where there. (They lost interest when I said I had no money.) A well behaved crowd. Sitting and listening there seemed to be a good mix of languages. There was a tubby guy in a cheap suit and video camera.

I thought it was a good turn out for a short notice, night time protest.

Back to the OP. How did the protest go? Did anyone here attend, or were we all too busy posting on RA?

So much for Ari’s assertion that people are calling for the genocide of the Jews in this thread.

Trashman said :

Captain RAAF said :

it’s just a matter of time before they push the wrong people too far and Palestine will return to the Palestinians in the time honoured fashion by way of large scale elimination, maybe this is the start and if thats the case, good riddance to them!

Right. So your answer to the situation is another holocaust.

Trashman, where did I say that it was ‘my answer’???? Nowhere did I say ‘I will do this…., or I want this to happen….”, all I said was that it is a possible outcome of Israels continued ignorance of world opinion regarding them, their existance and legitimacy as a state/nation or whatever you call it.

What I did say, that if it did happen, stiff bikkies for Israel!

Now instead of jumping on the ‘bash Captain RAAF’ bandwagon, how about you read people’s posts and if you feel the desire to drift off into pixie land, piss off and do it somewhere else! Nobber!

For the record, I abhor the majority of Israeli foreign policy. However I don’t advocate genocide as a solution.

You sir, are worthy of nothing but contempt.

Ari said :

Enjoy your Sao

Swinburne Astronomy Online? I certainly will enjoy that. Thanks for the link.

I sincerely hope you enjoy your blinkered universe!

Jim Jones said: “Don’t call me ‘mate’. You’ve come into a thread on the appalling actions of the Israel government and all you can do is yell ‘Why won’t you comdemn the terrorists’ and make furious hand gestures towards the holocaust. Anyone with this sort of attitude towards shooting civilians is not a ‘mate’.”

Citation needed. You’re attributing words and opinions I never said.

Point out where I even mentioned the word “terrorists” or “Holocaust” or even gave any indication of where I stand on the issue.

You, Sir, are a ranting fool who doesn’t even bother to check what he’s ranting against.

Enjoy your Sao

Ari said :

“That’s right Ari, anyone whose sympathies aren’t with the Israel government are obviously terrorists.”

Mate, at no point have I stated where my sympathies lie. And could you please point out exactly where I said such people are terrorists.

I simply pointed out some statements – one of them particularly disgusting.

You leapt on board. Attributed words and opinions to me and then, with your straw man set up, fired off the big guns … tiresome rants with lots of CAPS to make your point.

Yet, through none of this have you acknowledged that suggesting Israel’s Jews be wiped off the map in a genocide is, just perhaps, even a tiny little bit going too far.

You can sit here with your likeminded mates furiously agreeing with each other. I just don’t want to be part of a circle-jerk that tolerates such views.

I respectfully award you the Sao, Sir.

You win.

What a load of utter bollocks. Who is it that has suggested that “Israel’s Jews be wiped off the map in a genocide”?

Even if they had – who has expressed support for this?

Don’t call me ‘mate’. You’ve come into a thread on the appalling actions of the Israel government and all you can do is yell ‘Why won’t you comdemn the terrorists’ and make furious hand gestures towards the holocaust. Anyone with this sort of attitude towards shooting civilians is not a ‘mate’.

Everyone’s completely sick and tired of this crap. It doesn’t fly anymore.

“That’s right Ari, anyone whose sympathies aren’t with the Israel government are obviously terrorists.”

Mate, at no point have I stated where my sympathies lie. And could you please point out exactly where I said such people are terrorists.

I simply pointed out some statements – one of them particularly disgusting.

You leapt on board. Attributed words and opinions to me and then, with your straw man set up, fired off the big guns … tiresome rants with lots of CAPS to make your point.

Yet, through none of this have you acknowledged that suggesting Israel’s Jews be wiped off the map in a genocide is, just perhaps, even a tiny little bit going too far.

You can sit here with your likeminded mates furiously agreeing with each other. I just don’t want to be part of a circle-jerk that tolerates such views.

I respectfully award you the Sao, Sir.

You win.

Isn’t Hamas the dip you eat with Turkish bread?

I’m not taking sides by any means….both parties have shown their colours over recent years, but I think this article is worthy of a read. As always they are 2 sides to every story…. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/grotesque-theatre-succeeded-brilliantly/story-e6frg6so-1225874215412

Israel has now moved beyond its ritual demonisation of Hamas to the point where even Western sympathisers with Hamas are ipso facto regarded as terrorists. The fact that some members of the aid convoy had been filmed singing pro-Hamas songs is being treated in all seriousness as a justification for killing them.

Honestly, I look forward to the moment that the US finally gets sick of this kind of crap and cuts Israel loose.

Ari said :

Jim Jones said :

Ari said :

Jim Jones said :

That’s right Ari, the entire world is wrong wrong wrong and only Israel is right.

Thanks for posting those words for me, I plum forgot to put them in my post.

I take it you are comfortable with the quotes from the fellow travellers to your ’cause’, then?

If you can’t see that the entire world …. RANT … RANT … RANT … because we’ve heard them all before.

Your silence on my simple question indicates that your answer is “yes”.

That’s right Ari, anyone whose sympathies aren’t with the Israel government are obviously terrorists.

Skidbladnir said :

… it is simply a case of a merchant vessel in international water was on the receiving end of state-supported violence and acquisition of property (aka: simply commerce raiding under international law, but possibly viewed as an act of piracy by the IMB).

In other words… “ARRRRGGGHHHH ME HEARTIES…”

Jim Jones said :

Ari said :

Jim Jones said :

That’s right Ari, the entire world is wrong wrong wrong and only Israel is right.

Thanks for posting those words for me, I plum forgot to put them in my post.

I take it you are comfortable with the quotes from the fellow travellers to your ’cause’, then?

If you can’t see that the entire world …. RANT … RANT … RANT … because we’ve heard them all before.

Your silence on my simple question indicates that your answer is “yes”.

Criticizing the Israeli government is not being an anti-semite. People are critizing a government, not a race or a religeon. To suggest that the actions of Israel’s government are reflective of the Jewish race is plain racist.

damien haas said :

The whole exercise was designed to provoke a confrontation. The Israeli spokesman interviewed by Kerry OBrien described the peace activists as what Marx would call ‘useful idiots’.

Egypt controls Gaza’s southern border, and control points. Why dont they take the humanitarian supplies in through there ?

Even if it was ‘designed to provoke a confrontation’, why did the Israeli military take the bait? It still require them to be violent a-holes for it to work.

Funny how you cite the UN when it suits you, but fail to mention the innumerable times the UN has sanctioned and critized Israel

Oh, please. Innumerable? They’re easy to count. I mean, there have only been…um, really, that many? Sorry, only 223 resolutions from the UN Security Council about Israel and they’re all completely innocuous. Well, except for that one about breaching Argentine sovereignty. And that one about not complying with UN decisions. And the one about flagrant violations in its attack on Syria. And the censure for attacking Samu in the West Bank while it was under Jordanian control. And the one about maybe letting Palestinian refugees go home. And the one about violating a cease fire.

But apart from them, nothing. Wait, I’ve just been handed a bit of paper…oh, I see. “Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area. Calls on Israel’s neighbors to end the state of belligerency and calls upon Israel to reciprocate by withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in 1967 war…” Well, they were asking for it, I guess, and that was a while ago. Crazy times, the Sixties.

And these 19 separate resolutions deploring, censuring, demanding and declaring invalid actions in Jerusalem, Jordan and Lebanon, well, nobody’s perfect.

And then there’s some other very minor stuff: Beirut, attacking Iraqi nuclear facilities, some more stuff about those pesky Lebs, ooh, bombing Tunisia, nice place that time of year, killing a bunch of uni students, breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention (getting towards 200 now), ‘Cave of the Patriarchs’ massacre, very Indiana Jonesy, that one, respecting Lebanese sovereignty, ceasing war with Hamas and Hezbollah.

But apart from those small…well, I mean, they’re nothing really, so yes, let’s say ‘nothing’. Which I guess really is innumerable after all. Well, zero is a number, but you get the point.

JimJones:
He may well have been dispatched here via Megaphone courtesy of GIYUS, HonestReporting, or FLAME.

TheVirulentOne:
As they hadn’t approached yet crossed or neared the questionably legal blockade (45km outside it, iirc), it is simply a case of a merchant vessel in international water was on the receiving end of state-supported violence and acquisition of property (aka: simply commerce raiding under international law, but possibly viewed as an act of piracy by the IMB).
A vessel transporting cargo of previously security-screened (by a strategic allied state, no less) legitimate aid to civilians in an occupied territory, fulfilling Israel’s obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Dispatching a group of state-employed commandos onto such a NATO-registered (and NATO captained) vessel after it has already been checked for weapons by a NATO member isn’t likely to win international support.
IE: Its a contravention of North Atlantic Treaty Articles V and VI, which is why there have now been NATO and UN emergency meetings.

All we’re doing is offering a legitimate criticism to a government body for boarding a humanitarian ship on an aid mission and sanctioning the multiple killings using automatic weapons of civilians onboard, who were armed with kitchen knives and metal poles.
International media having footage of the killings suggest you should critically, and not just throw out your variations on the old “Palestinians = Terrorists, any response is justified in self-defence” line.

PS: Nobody competent drops a squad by fast-rope onto a crowd of people armed with sticks, they’ll become a pinata.
However, it lets on-ground forces then use ‘self defence’ excuses to open fire should they feel threatened.

I think the TheVirulentOne trolled you guys brilliantly.

Well done sir.

Ari said :

Jim Jones said :

That’s right Ari, the entire world is wrong wrong wrong and only Israel is right.

Thanks for posting those words for me, I plum forgot to put them in my post.

I take it you are comfortable with the quotes from the fellow travellers to your ’cause’, then?

If you can’t see that the entire world is completely and utterly fed up with the appalling and inhumane actions of the Israel government, then there’s no point even attempting to talk to you.

The UN sanctions and have been happening for years, as has increasing international disgust. And Israel’s response has been to throw tantrums and scream ‘ANTI-SEMITE … TERRORIST … ANTI-SEMITE … TERRORIST’ ad nauseum.

The Gaza atrocities were absolutely appalling, and now it’s followed up by this. It just gets worse and worse – the international community really is at breaking point on this and public opinion isn’t going to be swayed by the lies, because we’ve heard them all before.

TheVirulentOne said :

It’s always amusing to see how quickly the anti-semites and terrorist supporters can mobilise a protest. Not to mention how their networks quickly fill the internet and other media with their pro-terrorist lies.

…. I doubt it.

Hi VirulentOne- and which Israeli government media releases did you cut and paste those carefully worded factoids from? Nice to see how you immediately characterise anyone who has qualms about Israel’s clumsy and disproportionate action as anti-semitic or terrorist supporter. These are convenient words that the pro-Israel crowd use to muddy the water- anyone who criticises Israel is classified as anti-semitic, ie convenient confusion of a nation-state and an ethnic group (actually its a language group that includes both Jews and Arabs, but the pro-Zionists have appropriated that word for their own use). Do you know the meaning of ‘chutzpah’? and then there’s the hypocrisy over ‘terrorists’, which conveniently forgets the activities of the Stern Gang, Irgun, and the Haganah.

Israel’s politics have moved significantly to the right since 1967, but it continues to try to trade in images of ‘plucky little Israel’- Holocaust survivors and cute kibbutzim. The truth is that the religious right drive foreign policy, hence the free hand given to the ‘settlers’ in the Occupied Territories. If these people were of another religion, their aggressive thuggish behavior would have received instant international condemnation long before now.

Times change, and Israel is finding that its US-backed get-out of jail-free card doesn’t work the way it used to. Welcome to the real world.

Jim Jones said :

That’s right Ari, the entire world is wrong wrong wrong and only Israel is right.

Thanks for posting those words for me, I plum forgot to put them in my post.

I take it you are comfortable with the quotes from the fellow travellers to your ’cause’, then?

Ari said :

Yep, I knew it was a waste of time.

That’s right Ari, the entire world is wrong wrong wrong and only Israel is right.

Israel seems to be doing exactly what Bush did post 9-11, squandering any sympathy it may have garnered over the years in a stupid and unproductive rash of self assertion and “F*ck you lot, we’ll do as we please..”

Lets face it, without the $$$ billions the Yanks have poured into the place over the years, Israel would be sand and dust by now.

” I’d guess you’d be aware of the actions of the Stern Gang/Lehi and the use of phosphorous last year. We all know how objective the term ‘terrorist’ is.”

This is a good one. The use of chemical weapons on a civilian population. Phosphorous being a chemical weapon. The Americans did the same thing in Iraq bombing civilian areas with phosphorus. I wonder who Israel bought their chemical weapons from?

I knew it was unlikely to be useful, but I just scanned this thread and came across these:

Palestine will return to the Palestinians in the time honoured fashion by way of large scale elimination, maybe this is the start and if thats the case, good riddance to them!

and

It is clear to me that they [Israeli soldiers] allowed themselves to be attacked for the purpose of capturing a media grab

and

You’re not winning your ’cause’ any supporters here. Why don’t you go back to assassinating Palestinian children with US arms?.

Yep, I knew it was a waste of time.

VirulentOne, I’d guess you’d be aware of the actions of the Stern Gang/Lehi and the use of phosphorous last year. We all know how objective the term ‘terrorist’ is.

Are you fishing for a junket to Israel?

TheVirulentOne said :

1. Israel is a legitimate country, recognised as such by the UN, and a democracy.

Funny how you cite the UN when it suits you, but fail to mention the innumerable times the UN has sanctioned and critized Israel for massacring civilians.

TheVirulentOne said :

2. There has never been a country of Palestine.

The land of Palestine was occupied when Israel was formed – the bulk of the prior inhabitants (who had lived there for decades) were shipped out and had their land stolen by the new ‘legitimate nation’.

TheVirulentOne said :

3. When the UN established the country of Israel it was immediately attacked by the Arab neighbours.

4. These neighbours continue to attack Israel, and insist that Israel should be destroyed, over 60 years after the country was created.

Anyone with the barest knowledge of Middle Eastern politics can put this sort of bald statement into perspective – relations in the Middle East are a damn side more complex and conducive to dialogue than this disingenuous ‘Israel is a democracy surrounded by terrrorists’ rhetoric. Aside from Iran, all Israel’s neighbours support the two-state solution. Egypt has been actively involved in trying to implement peace talks to move towards a two-state solution.

These attempts are constantly undermined by Israel’s actions: bulldozing Palestinian houses so that ‘settlers’ can move in and steal their land; Israeli soldiers massacring civilians; the Israeli government erecting a giant wall (kind of like the Berlin Wall, really) to segregate the population; insititutionalised racism whereby Arabic citizens can’t get work visas or access government services; stealing ‘friendly’ nations passports as part of operations to assassinate enemies … the list is so long that it’s just not funny anymore.

TheVirulentOne said :

5. The so called “Palestinian Authority” is run by an international terrorist organisation, Hamas, who like it’s Arab cousins refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist.

The only reason the Palestinian Authority is now run by Hamas is because more moderate rulers of Palestine were given short shrift by the Israeli government who wouldn’t enter into serious negotations with them. The people of Palestine lost patience with being treated like this and reacted by embracing more extreme positions.

Perhaps if Israel had been conducive to two-sided communication and even-handed compromise instead of its usual hamfisted militaristic bullying then you wouldn’t have to deal with Hamas. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

TheVirulentOne said :

6. Whenever Isreal allows unsupervised shopments into the Hamas controlled areas weapons are smuggled in, which are used to attack innocent Israelis going about their daily business.

What’s your point? Israeli soldiers regularly shoot unarmed Palestinian children. This sort of ‘your side is worse than my side’ argument never gets anywhere. It’s little more than an excuse to justify state-sanctioned violence and cruelty.

Honestly, the way Israel is acting at the moment, it really shouldn’t exist. It’s a nasty state with institutionalised racism masquerading as a democracy and using Western money to fund the suppression of the original inhabitants.

No wonder your leaders got on so well with the rulers of apartheid South Africa. The world really has had enough with Israel’s nasty hypocrisy – unless they start acting like a decent democracy (and decent human beings) then you deserve to cease to exist as a nation.

TheVirulentOne said :

the anti-semites and terrorist supporters

Typical stuff.

You’re not winning your ’cause’ any supporters here. Why don’t you go back to assassinating Palestinian children with US arms?

Given that Israel has been milking the Holocaust for all it’s worth for over 50 years, you have a responsibility to be better. Unfortunately, recent history has demonstrated Israel to be almost as good at committing atrocities as the Nazis.

“1. Israel is a legitimate country, recognised as such by the UN, and a democracy.”

….except for the 6,000,000 Palestinians still living as refugees, descendents of the 800,000 Palestinians expelled by terrorists from their lands in 1948, and countless more 100s of 1,000s expelled since by the Israeli regime….no vote for them!

“2. There has never been a country of Palestine.”

There has never been a country of Israel, until 1948 when terrorists seized control of parts of POalestine and created it. In Roman times, there was a “Syria Palaestina”.

“3. When the UN established the country of Israel it was immediately attacked by the Arab neighbours.”

False. The UN established no such country. The UN partition plan for Palestine was rejected by Zionists terrorists and the local Palestinians alike, so the terrorists setup Israel instead of following the UN plan.

“4. These neighbours continue to attack Israel, and insist that Israel should be destroyed, over 60 years after the country was created.”

Yes, for example, Lebanon recently invaded itself, using Israeli troops. Or something. Your logic has beaten me.

“5. The so called “Palestinian Authority” is run by an international terrorist organisation, Hamas, who like it’s Arab cousins refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist.”

It was democratically elected. The Nazis used to call their opposition “terorists” at every opportunity as well. They are resisting a vile and vicious regime’s occupation.

“6. Whenever Isreal allows unsupervised shopments into the Hamas controlled areas weapons are smuggled in, which are used to attack innocent Israelis going about their daily business.”

If Israel is allowed to ship Apache gunships, F-16 fighters, and another $7,000,000.day’s worth of weapons in from the USA to perpetuate their regime, why shouldn’t the Palestinians as well?

The defense made by Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev for Israel’s deadly assault on the Turkish flotilla begs the question, why would Israeli commandos enter a foreign vessel so unprepared for an attack? Why would they allow themselves to be so vulnerable to a group of people deemed a threat? It is clear to me that they allowed themselves to be attacked for the purpose of capturing a media grab to justify their now typically unconscionable killing off of any perceived opposition. The Israeli Defense Force have form on this kind of media manipulation. And what is more, Mark Regev is just an extension of this media manipulation; a facade, a media savvy simulacrum of western media palatability. No more should the facade of Israel be allowed to exist unquestioned.

Hugh Lews said :

From Israel’s vantage point this was a no-win situation. Allow the ships to dock in Gaza and they would unload supplies that might be used to arm Hamas.

Crap! I think we would have seen ample footage of weapons by now – had anything actually existed.

When are the Israeli people going to realise they are being governed by a bunch of short-sighted cretins.

I despair of the things people do in this world in the name of religion…(cue John Lennon)

Irony = Jews sending prisoners to detention camps.

I hope that no fake Australian passports were involved in this operation!

Even if these ships weren’t carrying any illicit cargo, you can almost guarantee that the Israelis will suddenly discover some now – even if they have to place them there themselves! Of course, this would never happen, would it….?

I lost all respect for Israel a long time ago: what was once possibly a noble ideal has been ruined by greed, hatred, mistrust and arrogance. And the IDF’s targeting of civilians (and the UN) during the invasion of Lebanon and other operations is a major stain on their reputation. What kind of nation knowingly allows it’s troops to use live ammunition against kids throwing stones?

Yes, Hamas and their ilk are absolute scum – but the reason they have so much support from Palestinians is because to many they seemingly offer the only way to fight back against the treatment dished out to the Palestinians over the past 60 years by the Israelis. Talk has been tried, but what good has it really done to solve the problems there?

And the thought that a nation as paranoid as Israel has nukes scares the cr*p out of me.

The only way I reckon there will ever be peace in the Middle East is when they’ve all killed one another and turned the whole area into a huge smoking hole in the ground.

Wasn’t it a nice day in Canberra today?

whaddayado?

TheVirulentOne said :

There are simple facts in all of this which people should undertand:

1. Israel is a legitimate country, recognised as such by the UN, and a democracy.
2. There has never been a country of Palestine.
3. When the UN established the country of Israel it was immediately attacked by the Arab neighbours.
4. These neighbours continue to attack Israel, and insist that Israel should be destroyed, over 60 years after the country was created.
5. The so called “Palestinian Authority” is run by an international terrorist organisation, Hamas, who like it’s Arab cousins refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist.
6. Whenever Isreal allows unsupervised shopments into the Hamas controlled areas weapons are smuggled in, which are used to attack innocent Israelis going about their daily business.

7. When Israel has needed the space, they have simply turned up to the homes on non-Jews with guns and ordered them to leave. Extended family members of mine still have deeds to properties taken in this way by the Israeli government, which are now not recognised as legitimate.

There is no doubt Israel has had a difficult time of things, but there are many examples where there behaviour is well short of acceptable.

I think you just lengthened this thread by about 2 pages, Oh Virulent One.

the anti-semites and terrorist supporters

You’re either for us or against us! You either love what we do or you’re a baby-murdering terrorist! If you dare criticise the state of Israel you’re a goose-stepping Nazi and you approve of the Holocaust!

My, what a novel argument. I’ve never heard an apologist for Israeli atrocities say anything like that before.

I’d better not say anything about any of the African dictators, or North Korea for that matter, otherwise you’ll discover I secretly hate blacks and Asians.

Schmuck.

It’s always amusing to see how quickly the anti-semites and terrorist supporters can mobilise a protest. Not to mention how their networks quickly fill the internet and other media with their pro-terrorist lies.

Typically this board is full of the same. Ridiculous claims about accomodating people who were “dispossessed”, the racist claims of “riding the coat-tails of the Holocaust”, the laughable assertion that the only true democracy in the Middle East is “a terrorist state”, or how “regular coast guard” should have put their lives at risk to board a ship under the control of international terrorists. The furphy of international law is barely worth acknowledging – I know the left hate to admit it, but we’re not controlled by a one-world dictatorship yet.

There are simple facts in all of this which people should undertand:

1. Israel is a legitimate country, recognised as such by the UN, and a democracy.
2. There has never been a country of Palestine.
3. When the UN established the country of Israel it was immediately attacked by the Arab neighbours.
4. These neighbours continue to attack Israel, and insist that Israel should be destroyed, over 60 years after the country was created.
5. The so called “Palestinian Authority” is run by an international terrorist organisation, Hamas, who like it’s Arab cousins refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist.
6. Whenever Isreal allows unsupervised shopments into the Hamas controlled areas weapons are smuggled in, which are used to attack innocent Israelis going about their daily business.

So the so-called “peace activists”, ie supporters of international terrorism, intended to supply the Hamas terrorists with materials that can be used for fortifications. The terrorist-supporters (the only legitimate description of them) refused earlier inspection of their suspect cargo, thereby forcing Israel to intervene before the terrorist boats had reached Israeli waters – why you ask? Hmmm, perhaps because members of the crew were from Hamas, thos fine people dedicated to exterminating all Israeli’s, and of course their boats wouldn’t contain any weapons, nuclear or not, would they?

Any other action would have put the national security of Israeli at risk. So a simple choice – better to accidentally kill some terrorist-supporters rather than risk the lives of one Israeli.

Doubtless the organisers of the Anti-Israel protest will also be organising similar protests against the daily rocket attacks against Israel by the Lebanese Islamist terrorist group, Hezbollah. Surely they will hold vigils for the captured Israeli soldiers in the hands of the Hamas terrorists. But somehow I doubt it.

Captain RAAF said :

it’s just a matter of time before they push the wrong people too far and Palestine will return to the Palestinians in the time honoured fashion by way of large scale elimination, maybe this is the start and if thats the case, good riddance to them!

Right. So your answer to the situation is another holocaust.

It’s comforting to know that when the next round of purges begin we will have fine, upstanding citizens like the Captain who will be willing to slip on the armband and jackboots and herd the next generation of ‘undesirables’ (be they Jew, Muslim, radical etc) to the gas chambers.

For the record, I abhor the majority of Israeli foreign policy. However I don’t advocate genocide as a solution.

You sir, are worthy of nothing but contempt.

Beware, a wall of text follows.

In international incidents, few things are by accident.
In the end though, its less about who presents the most logical position in media, and more about whose point of view is being heard in media.
This was a no-win for Israel, and should have eventually been an expected outcome of a total blockade, even though its prettymuch how the plot of Uris’ Exodus would likely unfold if it was set today.

Unless you really want to consider that the goods on board really qualified under Israel’s policy of ‘dual use objects are military contraband’, the response was legitimately questionable (using 67A of the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea) and the use of force is unlikely to be deemed a proportional response (Part III, Section I or II of same document) by any local powers.

Its a break with Israel that the Turkish leadershp have been evidently chomping at the bit for a while now (January 2009, December 2009), and promising to start escorting future shipments in with Turkish Navy escort is an escalation that:
1) further isolates Israel should they attack or further provoke an ally of the United States, while offering them the opportunity to back down from the total hardline policy which prevents any kind of construction materials to be imported, and has severely restricted economic activity in the Gaza Strip (estimates are that it is running at below 25% of activity previous to the blockade).
2) brings Turkish policy into line with several other regional powers, temporarily getting Turks and their Prime Minister out of the prickly (regional) position of being a ‘close strategic ally’ or Israel.
3) And is a response in line with the statements of most its neighbours and some of its major trading partners.

So this incident really isn’t going to hurting the Turkish (18th largest world economy) in any appreciable way, and despite being justifiable from Israel’s side in that the ship was warned several times before even leaving port that they would be searched and treated as running contraband.
Turkish doing nothing and acceptance that the flotilla was going ahead has effectively sidelined Israel for now..

So you might as well start the protest march just around the corner, at least then you can say why you’re doing it…

PS: The holiday is over and I’m back in town.

So rent a mob set sail despite being told numerous times that it’s pointless. Rent a mob can’t understand that just for once they can’t have their own way. Rent a mob throw a dummy spit and provoke a confrontation by carrying on anyway. Seems simple despite all the misinformation and posturing.

I agree with those comments above that Israel has just about exhausted all the goodwill that existed toward it after 1948. Given the trauma under which the country was born, the international community could have expected Israel to be far more accommodating of those who were dispossessed.

I also agree with the sentiments that the Israeli leadership has become incapable of doing anything to defuse the timebomb that it has created.

What a shame – this part of the Middle East should be at peace, but it appears that it never will be, in our lifetimes at least.

Postalgeek said :

Someone ‘provokes’ and someone over-reacts. No change there. Very sad.

I think that hits the nail on the head.

I understand why the Israelis did this. Unfortunately for them, what they did is totally at odds with international law, and the social niceties of international diplomacy.

I could almost accept the argument that they have intercepted the ships for legit national security concerns, except it wasn’t a simple boarding and inspection, such as Australia would if a foreign owned vessel was suspected of smuggling arms or drugs, it was commandos, in international waters, at night. And the “prohibited” items which they are blockading include dangerous military equipment like “cement”.

Sure flotilla was there with the specific intention of baiting the Israelis, and they did a perfect job of it.

I might not know the whole story, but did spend several hours last night reading accounts and watching the various videos. Yes, some of the people on the ships really gave it to the first commandos aboard, and likely new they would be shot for it. But since the commandos were committing an act of piracy at the time, it really makes the response understandable to me.

I wonder why the ships don’t fly balloons to prevent attack from the air, like they used to in the first world war?

Sorry, I should have put that last bit in quotes.

It is, of course, our American chums who fund Israel to the tune of $7,000,000 per day

Jim Jones said :

krasny said :

When did you last check?

Not recently enough, it would seem.

Could be worse, though. At least we’re not in Palest*cough*Israel.

quote comment=”262091″]The whole exercise was designed to provoke a confrontation. The Israeli spokesman interviewed by Kerry OBrien described the peace activists as what Marx would call ‘useful idiots’.

Lenin, not Marx. Anyway, points for regurgitating one of the more amusing Israeli PR soundbites.

damien haas said :

Egypt controls Gaza’s southern border, and control points. Why dont they take the humanitarian supplies in through there ?

I guess you’re referring to the Rafah border crossing. Go google it, along with Philadelphi Route and European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah, and answer some of your questions. Through that restricted choke point they have to supply 1.5 million people living in an area less than half the size of Canberra (and we’re not talking the ACT).

Someone ‘provokes’ and someone over-reacts. No change there. Very sad.

krasny said :

Pommy bastard: “we”?

Last I checked, Australia had not yet become the 51st state…

When did you last check?

Pommy bastard: “we”?

Last I checked, Australia had not yet become the 51st state…

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

Like Israel even cares if 10 million people come out to protest against their actions? They will do whatever it takes to ‘keep Israel safe’, regardless of the consequences and that is what people fail to absorb. Israel does not care about consequences nor does it care about the laws of other country’s like in regards to Passport forgeries, murder sanctioned by government or kidnapping citizens so that they can be spirited away to Israel for trial.

They’ve been riding the coat-tails of the holocaust for sixty years and just as Bush Jnr was able to reverse the worlds sympathy for the US after 9-11 by invading Iraq under false pretences, so to has Israel lost all world sympathy and it’s just a matter of time before they push the wrong people too far and Palestine will return to the Palestinians in the time honoured fashion by way of large scale elimination, maybe this is the start and if thats the case, good riddance to them!

Israel is a terrorist state. What do you expect of terrorists but this kind of endless stupidity. I never had any sympathy, just fear.

I put Israel right up there with cyclist’s…

smh.com.au has video of the commandos boarding one of the ships. The people on the ships put up a hell of a fight and appear to have beaten the living daylights out of about 3 or 4 commandos (even throwing one overboard). So 10 out of 10 for spirit, but minus several million for good thinking as Israeli commandos aren’t known for their restraint or sense of humour. End of the video shows them shooting 2 or 3 passengers at close range.

The whole exercise was designed to provoke a confrontation. The Israeli spokesman interviewed by Kerry OBrien described the peace activists as what Marx would call ‘useful idiots’.

Egypt controls Gaza’s southern border, and control points. Why dont they take the humanitarian supplies in through there ?

I lost sympathy with Israel years ago.

The facts are, Hugh…

Yes the protesters were there mainly for the media attention, it would (and has) do a lot more than the 10,000 tons of aid.

There was virtually no chance there would be weapons on board. Like I said, it was for media attention. If they were found to be smuggling weapons it would do their cause more harm than good.

It’s unlikely that the aid would have made it to Gaza once Israel had a look at it. They do not allow building supplies into the territory (despite the fact Israel keeps levelling Gaza’s cities), and my understanding is that is what was mostly on board.

The question remains, why such a military operation was carried out. There were black clad commandos, dropping in from helicopters, under the cover of darkness, in international waters. How can anyone say that under that under these circumstances Israel didn’t expect this kind of outcome? It’s not hard to imagine a better plan they could have executed.

Hugh Lews said :

From Israel’s vantage point this was a no-win situation. Allow the ships to dock in Gaza and they would unload supplies that might be used to arm Hamas. Stop the ships and you risk a public relations disaster, which is exactly what happened.

First the ships ignored repeated warnings from the Israeli navy to turn back or to put into the Israeli port of Ashdod where the supplies could be off-loaded, inspected, and, if purely humanitarian, sent on to the Gaza Strip. They kept on sailing even after Israel publicly warned that its commandos would board the vessels.

Why didn’t they send the regular coast guard to board the vessels in broad daylight?
Then film the whole thing and cry foul if/when shit occurred.

“Wow, a bandwagon, let’s get on it!”

I doubt most people will know anything about this other than the news headlines – designed to grab attention.

I even doubt the poster knows the story.
——————————————-

From Israel’s vantage point this was a no-win situation. Allow the ships to dock in Gaza and they would unload supplies that might be used to arm Hamas. Stop the ships and you risk a public relations disaster, which is exactly what happened.

First the ships ignored repeated warnings from the Israeli navy to turn back or to put into the Israeli port of Ashdod where the supplies could be off-loaded, inspected, and, if purely humanitarian, sent on to the Gaza Strip. They kept on sailing even after Israel publicly warned that its commandos would board the vessels.

A protest at 5:30 in the afternoon? What, are they supplying lighting for the event, or are you all just going to stand in the dark and hope that TEN films with infra red?

I’d go, it’s a worthy protest, but I’m not freezing my arse off for a protest you can’t see. Plus, I have to drive home.

Also on the 3rd June at Garema Place from 5pm – 7pm.

http://australiansforpalestine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/CANBERRA-PROTESTS2.jpg