Do you want your bags?

CK, thank you kindly for that quality info.

I will remove these items from my consideration!

Sorry, sticky keys – but you get the drift.

Nota, my understanding is that the available products are not really bio-degradable – in the snce that they don’t brak down at the molecular level. They do however have a relatively shorter (than other bah products) life whn exposed to UV light and the plastic becomes brittle and breks down into tiny pieces of bag. They’re really no better than the existing product and infat raise a bunch of issues about environmental plastics residues etc.

cantanga said :

Caf- already done that 3 times not once have I heard from them. So I figure they don’t want me to recycle.

Hmmm. Are you sure you hit the “submit” button and not the “cancel” button? 🙂

If you can’t get your bin replaced through using the on-line forms, then CALL Canberra Connect, 132281. They’ll get a recycle bin delivered to your house.

What’s the go with bio-degradable shopping bags?

How quickly and effectively do they degrade? Are they prohibitively expensive or of poor function?
Is it possible to legislate for their exclusive use, while banning conventional plastic bags?

In a recent ‘ask the Minister’ segment on ABC 666, a couple of callers tried in the clearest possible terms to educe a response from Minister Corbell about bio-degradable bags. Unfortunately the subject ‘failed to gain any traction’ whatsoever from Simon, who appeared to sidestep and avoid any mention of them at all.

caf said :

cantanga: Just fill out the online form here to get a replacement bin.

Worked fine for me when I needed one, anyway.

Caf- already done that 3 times not once have I heard from them. So I figure they don’t want me to recycle.

“easy votes for politicians bereft of real ideas or alternatives”

As well as an easy way for people to pretend they are doing something for the environment while still able drive their gas guzzling 4WD and buying furniture made from timber illegally logged from rainforests in PNG and not feel any guilt because they don’t use plastic bags.

Sorry Clown Killer, I struggle to show enough sarcasm in type.

That’s ok, it’s an expected response when hard edged reality rubs up against touchy-feely nonsense.

I’ll type this slowly so it will be easier for people to understand. The plastic bags themselves are not inherently evil. They do not sneak off into the woods when no one is watching. They are relatively inert (hence they take a while to break down), they’re light (easily wind-bourne) and apparently in the sea they look a bit like a jelly fish which is a problem if you’re a sea creature that enjoys jelly fish.

They get into the environment, or leave the managed waste stream, when there are weaknesses in the way that we handle waste or when people subvert the existing waste management practices (ie the litter). Because the plastic bag is, well just a plastic bag, it doesn’t matter if it was one with a 10 cent levy or one that came free form the store (which is a misnomer in itself because the store has actually factored in the bag cost to the cost of the products, but I digress) if it escapes from the waste stream or never enters it, it still has the potential to end up looking like dinner for some seal or turtle or whatever likes the look of jelly fish.

Charging a levy may reduce the amount of bags in circulation but it may not reduce the number that escape or never enter the waste stream. Likewise banning shopping bags won’t work either because people will still need plastic bags for a myriad of reasons (nappy bags, dog-poo bags, rubbish tidy bags, bags for carrying stuff, you name it). Shopping bag manufacturers will market their existing product to these consumers who will buy in bulk – and the cycle continues with bags either not entering or escaping from the waste management stream.

A levy on shopping bags, or a ban on shopping bags does not address the problem that has been identified – it does pander to the minority self-interest groups and it may yield easy votes for politicians bereft of real ideas or alternatives.

There is a fantastic plastic bag art piece in the NGA’s Soft Sculpture Exhibition at the moment. The ammount of self control it took to not run my hands along it- I tell you, I deserved a medal!

Postalgeek said :

So, based on my own empirical observations, yes, plastic bags do indeed pose a real ecological hazard.

Sheep also pose a real ecological hazard.

“So, based on my own empirical observations, yes, plastic bags do indeed pose a real ecological hazard.”

I’ve seen a hell of a lot of wildlife killed by cars, lets get rid of them too.

Given the number of bags used nationally, an insignificant amount of these end up outside of the waste stream, and of these a tiny amount create problems for wildlife. Any suggestion that plastic bags cause any sort of real or significant ecological hazard is simply a lie pushed by self-interest groups.

CK, I can only speak from personal experience but I have untangled animals from plastic bags without being part of any group who actively seek animals in distress. I have tended to a lamb on our property, and the most recent was an entangled seagull on the beach at St Kilda, with several people uselessly pointing at it. Fortunately I had a coat that I was able to throw over it.

So, based on my own empirical observations, yes, plastic bags do indeed pose a real ecological hazard.

Catanga said

cantanga said :

As for ant and the complaint about people bagging recyclables I can safely say I don’t do that. I don’t even recycle seeing as I don’t have a recycle bin and TAMS refuses to replace it even after multiple requests.

I don’t have a recycling bin either, as I live in the country where there are no rubbish collections. I drive my recycling to a little depot the council has set up for us, it’s a line of wheely bins we put our recyclables in. It’s on the way to Canberra so it’s convenient.

I generate a small supermarket bag of actual rubbish per week, and put it in the bin at work, usually. As I’m not driving to Bungendore to put that in the dump.

On a trip to Ireland five years ago we were surprised to only get brown paper bags and not plastic bags when we picked up a few items from their major Department store chain. Surely that would be a useful compromise?

I also agree that packaging guidelines need to be updated to use less plastic, but it’s not something the ACT Govt can do unilaterally though.

cantanga said :

bugger paying extra for bin liners, I figure I’ll just throw it all loose into the bin instead of plastic bagging it all.

Me too, pity the garbage man!!!

Clown Killer said :

They’re looking after the environment

No they’re not that’s the whole point. A bag that cost 10 cents is just as likely to end up in a whales blow-hole as a bag that was free. Unless you can determine how the bags are ending up outside the waste management stream then any fiddling with imposed levies is window dressing without any positive environmental outcome.

Sorry Clown Killer, I struggle to show enough sarcasm in type.

trouble is, catanga, i don’t have a bin; just hook a bag up near the kitchen door and toos rubbish in – i have a large plastic tub under this into which we put recyclables. the bag gets tied up when full, popped onto the full plastic tub and the lot gets a ride to beside the garage where the bag goes in the bin (usually only put on the street for emptying each fortnight or so) and the tub gets tipped into the big yellow lid bin.

mostly take green (or hessian) bags to the shop but occasionally get a few things put into the free bags to stock up for the ‘bin’. in europe they make you buy plastic bags and you tend to use fewer of them, so clown killer’s notion that a free vs a 10c bag is equally likely to end up causing environmental damage is false if there are demonstrably fewer bags when they cost the consumer directly (of course, supermarkets factor in their plastic bags to their stock pricing, so they’re not free now)

we do need to do a lot of work at the front end of the production cycle to ensure minimal waste product, yes, but this [banning or charging] is also a good way to raise community awareness of the potential effects of these bags and other waste products on the environment.

If they ban, how are they going to distinguish between the free disposable plastic bags and the disposable plastic bags that people buy like bin liners and garbage bags and sandwich bags and oven bags (are they plastic?) And if they don’t ban the lot, what would stop the supermarkets then selling what they now give free as bin liners. Budget multi-use bin liners, 1¢ for 5 along with the chewing gum at the counter.

Oh and the important question – has someone submitted this sign to PassiveAggressiveNotes.com yet?

cantanga: Just fill out the online form here to get a replacement bin.

Worked fine for me when I needed one, anyway.

Only one person has seemed to think about what the bags are. Like good environmentalists we have jumped to a conclusion that it is all about plastic shopping bags. Maybe it is all about somebody stealing bags from the person in the house. Maybe it is all about what was in the bags? Suggestions?

I use my shopping bags for bin liners too. I have the green shopping bags and use them until my stock of plastic bags is getting low. I haven’t ever thrown out bags by themselves as I only collect what I use. Having to buy bin lines kind of defeats the purpose IMHO.

bugger paying extra for bin liners, I figure I’ll just throw it all loose into the bin instead of plastic bagging it all. Not only do I save myself 10c/bag but I also thwart the stupid idea as now there will be hundreds of smaller packages floating around killing spotted frogs instead of having it all bundled up unable to fly around.
As for ant and the complaint about people bagging recyclables I can safely say I don’t do that. I don’t even recycle seeing as I don’t have a recycle bin and TAMS refuses to replace it even after multiple requests.

I’ve noted several times on various forums that the garbage bag manufacturers came out in favour of a shopping bag ban very vocally a few years ago – a ban being very much in their interests – but then shut up smartly on PR expert advice. Now they are just biding their time, waiting for us to have to BUY their product, when we used to simply recycle our shopping bags. There is simply going to be very little saving on actual plastic bags bought in one way or another, and of course we pay some 10 or 20 times as much for a “proper” bin liner as the cost passed on to consumers by the supermarket.

I want my bags too!

Where am I going to get my auto-erotica supplies?

Having no (or expensive) plastic bags might finally stop people from putting their recycling in supermarket bags and then into the bin. That stuff gets thrown out, not recycled. Take them out of the bags! I just use those Coles shopping bags now as my recycling bin next to the normal one, they have flat bottoms and stand up nicely. Fill them with bottles and tins and things, and then tip that into the big recycling bin.

Perhaps that’s what we’ll be doing with our rubbish, too.

Hmmm no more placky bags so I’ll have to buy some to singly use for the dirty nappies, as opposed to the multiple use they get now before making their way to landfill. That sounds like a good idea.

They’re looking after the environment

No they’re not that’s the whole point. A bag that cost 10 cents is just as likely to end up in a whales blow-hole as a bag that was free. Unless you can determine how the bags are ending up outside the waste management stream then any fiddling with imposed levies is window dressing without any positive environmental outcome.

damien haas said :

This policy should be displayed at the point of entry to stores extorting the public in such a fashion.

Wow, spend $70 and then worry about 10c, calling it extortion. Awesome over reaction.

I was in Office works on Saturday and spent over $70. I asked for a bag, and was told that i would have to pay 10 cents for one. I expressed my disgust at this extortion, carefully balanced my purchases and left. I was only walking to the car, but if I had been catching public transport, i would have had to buy a bag.

This policy should be displayed at the point of entry to stores extorting the public in such a fashion.

phototext said :

I’m with Ainslie protestor.

They make great garbage bags. Gonna have to stock up.

+ 1.

I use supermarket bags for our bathroom and kitchen bins – now I will have to buy actual garbage bags.

Maybe the govt has stumbled onto something here.
They aren’t revenue raising by increasing taxes on cigarettes, nappies, etc, any more.
They’re looking after the environment.

When I saw the sing I assumed that someone might have stolen their bags from their house or something…
Your version of what it means makes more sense though.

Madame Workalot said :

Constitutional?

That’s interesting. How so?

Under the Constitution (can’t remember what section – maybe 51?), only the Commonwealth has the power to impose duties, customs and excise. I believe the bag levy is an excise.

It’s Mabo. It’s the Constitution. It’s just… the vibe of the thing.

Constitutional?

That’s interesting. How so?

Under the Constitution (can’t remember what section – maybe 51?), only the Commonwealth has the power to impose duties, customs and excise. I believe the bag levy is an excise.

The ACT Government isn’t going to be able to impose the 10c levy compulsorily because they don’t have the power under the Constitution. They might be able to put enough pressure on businesses in the ACT to compel them to impose the charge themselves. Doubtful though.

“I believe they’ve hit a constitutional snag on the levy and are moving to a ban.”

Oh, even effin better.

Do these people actually bother to think this stuff through. For gods sake.

caf said :

Ban? I thought the plans were for a 10c tax/excise/royalty whatever.

I believe they’ve hit a constitutional snag on the levy and are moving to a ban.

Maybe his wife and mother-in-law have walked out on him, and he’s regretting it?

The Productivity Commission produced a report on the plastic shopping bag issue a few years ago. The conclusion was that the cost of banning/charging far outweighed any incidental benefit to waste management or the environment.

But in case the hippies get their way, you can bulk buy about 3000 for around $90. Use them for shopping and rubbish bags (as most do now).

The cost is worth it just to see the expressions of horror on hippies faces in Woolies.

I’m with Ainslie protestor.

They make great garbage bags. Gonna have to stock up.

It’s gonna be a right royal pain in the butt doing a shop without them, if you drive a car then the “green bags” are fine but on a bike with a backpack then they make the pack so much easier.

Looks like I’ll have to pay 10c per bag penalty for not driving a car.

The fact that bags may end up outside of the desired waste management stream is essentially the issue. Given the number of bags used nationally, an insignificant amount of these end up outside of the waste stream, and of these a tiny amount create problems for wildlife. Any suggestion that plastic bags cause any sort of real or significant ecological hazard is simply a lie pushed by self-interest groups.

Policy efforts would be better spent on improving the waste management stream and educating the community of the (minor) environmental benefits of ensuring plastic bags end up in landfill where they belong rather than removing an inherant good from the community for the sake of a few whales or quolls or whatever else is dumb enough to mistake a shopping bag for dinner.

shanefos said :

Clown Killer said :

Baning plastic shopping bags is an absolute wank. Just another example of a government devoid of real policy ideas pandering to envio-mentalists in a cynical grab for votes.

I’m keen to hear your alternatives… Sorry, “real policy ideas”.

Righto,

Sensible packaging guidelines. The perfect example of this, would be eliminating prepackaging fruit and veg at the supermarkets, and going back to the plastic bag on rollers, rather than say, four avacaodoes in a pastic tub, in a plastic bag.

When this rolls out, someone subsidises the production of replacement bags (be they the ‘ebviro-bags’ currently in production at the moment) or other. This would be a perfect time for the Government not to throw money into the actual subsidy but offering tax breaks to big polluting business to step up and offer a solution, such as sponsoring the cheaper production and importing of the bags.

This is a reach, but if one was to vote to for this, and call them environmentally aware, they then get blindfolded put on a bus and taken out to a primary producer who then shows them what is being done on the farms or whatever to show them that although Agriculutre is curreently being seen as a major consumer and producer of these issues, they also get a decent understanding of at times, it is unavoidable and pillioring the hand that feeds you is ultimately, a total waste of time.

Clown Killer said :

Baning plastic shopping bags is an absolute wank. Just another example of a government devoid of real policy ideas pandering to envio-mentalists in a cynical grab for votes.

I’m keen to hear your alternatives… Sorry, “real policy ideas”.

This whole idea is complete rubbish. If Governments really want to do something about reducing landfill waste (which is one of the major beefs, plus the whole getting on the wind and ending up in wrong environments i.e. whales stomachs) they would create guidelines for responsible packaging for the individual products, and couple that with legislation that would force companies to comply.

yet another example of Governments being forced to pander to an environmental movement that is unfortunately hamstrung by urban dwellers looking for a quick and easy, soft n cuddly, settle the conscience then place our head back our self satisfied arse solution

Baning plastic shopping bags is an absolute wank. Just another example of a government devoid of real policy ideas pandering to envio-mentalists in a cynical grab for votes.

Ban? I thought the plans were for a 10c tax/excise/royalty whatever.