Public service breathes a collective sigh of relief after PM repeats his respect mantra

Fact checkers have repeatedly shown that the 41,000 was a made up figure and grossly exaggerated the actual figure. Even LNP apologists acknowledged it included allegedly projected recruitments and, even though some of those jobs did not and may not ever exist, equivalent numbers were going to be sacked.

Megsy the 2021-22 State of the Service report had 159,469 APS on the books. 2023-24 had 185,343 on the books. 26,000 more.

Extrapolate 12 months and 41,000 extra is a very fair estimate. We’ll know in November.

Whenever Penfold presents any form of arithmetic, always check to see whether he managed to get one right.

In this case he uses the incorrect base to produce near double a fair answer. I am using the raw figures he presented above.

Contractors are not included in the APS base so the base figure for employment (excluding contractors who retained their jobs) is 159469 + 11000 or 170469. Replacing the 11,000 contractors with APS is neutral, nil growth, so ~170,000 is the correct base..

The growth period presented 2021-22 to 2023-24 is two years, and represents 4.27% annually. Extrapolating that figure for one year (fwiw) produces a total growth of about 22,790 from 2021-22 to 2024-25, far from the 41,000 claimed.

In any event, Penfold’s failure to understand something again is hardly a relevant fact for those actually managing the work that needs to be done; energy transition, for example.

@Penfold
As you will no doubt be aware, I like to look at evidence.

So, I downloaded the actual data, which underpins the State of the Service Report, from the Australian Public Service Commission – which, you can also do here (https://www.apsc.gov.au/employment-data/aps-employment-data-31-december-2024) by scrolling to the bottom of the page.

In that Excel workbook, the worksheet labelled “Table 15” is particularly relevant, as it provides a breakdown of APS numbers across all states, territories and overseas postings, as at December (more up to date than your, 2023/24 figures), for the years 2005 to 2024.

If we take December 2021, as representing the last figures under the Coalition government, we can compare the staffing to December 2024, and note that in the period:
* Total APS numbers rose from 155,248 to 193,503 – an increase of 38,255 or 24.64% across the APS, on 2021 figures;
* In ACT, the numbers rose from 59,605 to 69,438 – an increase of 9,833 or 16.50% in ACT, on 2021 figures.

As you will see in the worksheet labelled “Table 16”, which breaks down the numbers by capital cities, regions and overseas postings, the substantial majority of the APS jobs Labor created, were outside of the ACT – and were spread across the whole of Australia and overseas postings.

Yet, you totally support your, now defunct, hero’s promise to decimate the ACT workforce, by removing 41,000 Canberra-based jobs … i.e. around 59% of the total as at December 2024.

Tell me, Penfold, where would you live and work, if the APS in Canberra was virually shut down? Because without those public servants generating demand for local private sector services, it would be hard for non-public service employing businesses to maintain a presence here.

In shocking news, alongside the shock learning that Australia didn’t like the thought of a potato for its leader, we learn now that, yet again, an arithmophobiac has shown yet again an incapability to do basic calculations.

Colour me shocked!

JS – it probably would have been easier going straight to the SotS reports. But regardless thanks for the 38,000 number. I was using 30 June 2022 as the base for the Coalition numbers. But it sounds like you agree that the 41,000 APS number is reasonable.

Now in your excitement you ignored that the 41,000 was all APS, not just Canberra, so I’m not tying it back to Dutton’s policy. What are all these APS doing ?

Poor Axon thinks APS includes contractors and sledges people for maths despite coming up with some weird 22 000 number. Perhaps he should have looked at the SotS reports. Go figure.

As pointed out by others these figures are bunk and have been debunked. But what should have been obvious too anyone looking at the election….who cares? The Australian public certainly doesn’t.

Outside of the Skynews/very online bubble of cooked right wing culture warriors, the majority of Australians by and large don’t care that the government employs public servants what they do seem to care about is being able to access government services when they need to and that those services work.

I’m personally happy the right wing are seemingly going to continue to pursue imported American culture wars because of how poorly it has done here and how many far right wing grifters we have already servicing a very small market. Meanwhile as the culture warriors obsess with nonsense, the sensible people who have been elected to run this country can get on with talking about the important issues we need to solve to move forward.

Penfold, it’s a simple equation if you know the actual underlying numbers. APS staff began replacing contractors from 1 July 2022, the bulk of the 11k you mention. As contracts expired, there were more APS staff added taking the total to around 25k by the end of June 2024. The additional numbers were extrapolated out based on averaging and known closuring of contracts in agency call centres, service centres and in housing of certain IT operations. While the government dumped the Coalition’s Cyber Hubs program in 2023, some of the agencies involved had program and project work that carried over into the early months of this year, filling out the additional 15k number.
If you look at each agency’s annual reports and PBS, you will clearly be able to identity those funding lines that aren’t supported by APS staff, even though a senior executive officer is either sponsoring or managing the proram/project and funds.
You’re welcome!

Oh, I geddit now Axon, you think 11,000 APS replaced 11,000 contractors. That’s hilarious 😂

@Penfold
“What are all these APS doing ?”
Given that the overwhelming majority of these APS (as per the accurate figures I provided) were recruited outside of Canberra, Penfold, I expect they are providing, and supporting, government services to the over 26 million Australians who don’t live in the ACT.

JS – those numbers you provided are quite interesting. Did you know women outnumber men by 50% and almost every role EL1 and above is female dominated ?

That sure destroys the glass ceiling myth.

Utterly false, Penfold. Your comprehension is as bad as your maths. I even based my reply solely on your quoted figures to help you to understand the logic.

You failed. Shocking news, I know.

Penfold said:
“Only 11,000 of them replaced contractors and consultants”
Penfold said:
“you think 11,000 APS replaced 11,000 contractors”

While trying to keep up, you just shot yourself in the other foot.

The higher the base employment as replacement, the less the nett APS growth that you can claim to project. That is a bit dim on your part.

I expect you will now make wild claims about relative productivity. Knock yourself out with that form of ideological idiocy. Reality will move on.

Providing services hey JS. Well we know they’re not building houses, lowering power prices or the cost of living. What services do you think they could be providing given myGov is delivering 80 odd services online these days ?

As for maths Axon, one suspects you’re working with an abacus or crayons, the logic is bizarre.

Axon I’ll try to keep this as simple as possible:

APS numbers do not include contractors. Nett, gross, relative or otherwise.

@Penfold
As I don’t use federal government services that much, I don’t know what services those APS staff are providing outside of Canberra … suffice to say that a majority of voting Australians were not concerned enough with APS numbers that it affected their vote.

“Providing services hey JS. Well we know they’re not building houses, lowering power prices or the cost of living. What services do you think they could be providing given myGov is delivering 80 odd services online these days ?”

What does this even mean? It’s barely coherent nonsense. We need people who can build houses for sure, but the value of someone’s role in government isn’t measured by whether they can build a house or not.

I don’t reckon people who are monitoring terrorism threats are skilled in building houses, nor the ones working on trade deals, or the ones processing passports etc , etc…

I’m just amazed after Dutton went to the election on a platform of culture wars and got trounced that you’re still at it. Well maybe not amazed so much as amused.

Penfold. Given I pointed out to you in the first place that contractors were not APS, your responses are bizarre.

Your logical failure falls in determining a base for growth, as is evidently clear to others here who have made the same point. Replacement is not growth.

Given your previously demonstrated incapacity the moment a percentage turns up, it is no surprise you are failing again.

Your ideological fantasies have no relevance beyond others exposing your repeated failure in reality.

Well Axon once again you prefer to comment on commenters rather than engage in rational debate.

Here’s the problems with your logic:

1. You can’t reinvent APS numbers because you want to (“base figure” was your chosen illusion, “170,000”)
2. APS numbers as per that SotS report increased 26,000 in just two years, yet you make up some wild claim that “22,790 from 2021-22 to 2024-25”. Rightyo.
3. If you think 1 APS replaced 1 contractor well that’s laughable.

But thanks for the lessons in mathematics and logic. Perhaps go and read the SotS reports, they’re quite fascinating.

Replacement is not growth.
11,000 non-APS out with 11,000 APS in means the nett employment increase via APS is (26,000 – 11,000) = 15,000 in two years. Your own figures destroy your claims and every one of my (and other people’s) posts illustrates it even as you twist and turn.
You do not even recognise that your third point further exposes your folly.

People are accustomed to your transparently misleading comments as you try to escape your blunder so keep wasting your time if it helps you to cope.

Well the good news Seano is passport processing times are coming down without more staff and the Albanese government isn’t working on any trade deals. Terrorism monitoring is conducted by at least six agencies and they’re not replacing contractors or consultants.

As a suggestion, hold off on that Mensa application.

IDK why you’re making snide comments about Mensa applications, your comment once again does not make any sense.

You can keep pushing debunked culture wars conspiracies about the size of the public service but Saturday’s result suggests it’s going to be a sad three years because Australian public is not interested.

Maybe it’s time to grow up and deal with issues on facts and merit.

Well Axon the State of the Service report disagrees with you. Hmmm …. who to believe …. the APS Commissioner or Axon. Tough one there. Like i said to Seano, don’t lodge that Mensa application, it will end badly.

Seano if the comment doesn’t make any sense, i guess discussing positive vetting would be a bridge way too far.

I guess we have to forgive Penfold with the Coalition deservedly trounced there’s no coalition talking points to parrot at least for awhile, and probably not that many memes to cut & paste …from experience we know he can’t rely on research, data or facts to back his arguments. All he has left are weird attempts at insults and his wits, so he’s really up against it.

No, Penfold, it does not, in any respect. To quote Penfold, “11,000 of them replaced contractors and consultants.”
Replacement is not growth. Only the surplus is, as has been well covered. Your opening claim is false. The rest of your posts are rubbish.

I have seen that you do not like people to point out that you lost, or game over or the like, but there it is for all to see.

You appear to be assuming most people are incapable of noticing that your figures do not add up, that you are engaged in nothing more than petty culture wars, and irrelevant asides with your retreats.

That worked so well for Dutton, didn’t it?
Oh.

Thanks for the laugh Axon. So you think a $300k contracting enterprise architect will be replaced by one $120k APS EA. Here in the real world, nope.

I did kindly point out the three errors in your logic which notably you’ve been unable to address. Oh well.

What exactly were all these $300k contracting enterprise architects doing?

Why did we need 11,000 more of them and their contracting brethren?

Are you asking what an Enterprise Architect does chewy ? Maybe try Google.

Why does the government need contractors you also ask. Goodness, guess IT isn’t your thing.

No, you did not manage even one. Anyone not already utterly bored can re-read to see that. Replacement is not growth. You have never even tried to address your blunder in your opening post, avoiding the point while throwing out false claims as much as you ever have in every thread where you have been caught out. All of them as I recall.

Given you alone have invented your latest silly comparison, I too will be interested in your cogent answer to chewy14’s question. Oops, I said “cogent”. That kills that option.

The meltdown of Penfold continues.

@Penfold
Actually, Penfold, I believe chewy’s question is quite valid.

I was an IT contractor for the last 15 years of my working life.

Many of my contracts, were in both Public Service and Parliamentary Service departments. When I worked in those departments, my contracts were typically for 6 months to undertake niche roles on specific projects. When working on those projects, I worked alongside many permanent APS ITO (Information Technology Officer) 1’s, 2’s and SITO C’s as well as other contractors.

So, while the department could have trained staff to do my role, they found it expedient to have meet their needs, on short term contract – which is a valid use of contractors. Having said that, I encountered several long term contractors (and I’m talking about some in the same role for over 10 years), who were clearly performing PS ‘line roles’, but those contractors were used to get around government, typically Conservative, restrictions on staffing numbers.
Needs must – and the APS was paying premium rates, plus agency on costs, for essentially staff roles.

“Are you asking what an Enterprise Architect does chewy ?”

No, maybe try reading and comprehending first.

“Why does the government need contractors you also ask.”

Once again, not what I asked.

Goodness, those comprehension issues for Penfold go deep.

And here i was thinking he was going to “lift the bar” on debating.

Although good to see you don’t know what those additional consultants were needed for or what they were doing.

Maybe you should read the state of the service report before commenting?

LOL, You’re really not taking the election result well are you Penfold? I’m not even an ALP supporter but your reactions have been hilarious.

Axon are you aware you’ve posted “replacement is not growth” four times now. It’s not going to get any less silly a statement the more times you post it, but feel free to keep going.

Do you think many of these contractors and consultants sit there doing low level work ? Many are highly paid professionals doing specialised jobs, like IT architects, cyber security experts, project managers. You think they’re going from $300,000+ salaries to become EL2s on $120,000 ? By your “replacement” theory, 11,000 = 11,000, you clearly do.

The real world doesn’t quite work like that, though according to JS, chewy and yourself it does. Questions like “What exactly were all these $300k contracting enterprise architects doing?” shows a limited understanding of the way government, the economy and the nation operates. But it sounds like you’re all having a great group hug. Enjoy it !

Did i read that right JS, you were an IT contractor for 15 years and you want to know what an enterprise architect does ? Goodness me. Do you know what project managers, developers, testers, business analysts and system integrators do ? Ever met the infrastructure guys ?

Now clearly chewy has never worked in IT but if you have you should know all those roles and what they do, how the project team works together. Perhaps waterfall is a thing at Ginninderra, agile is a spanish term and cloud is a pie in the sky.

@Penfold
“Do you think many of these contractors and consultants sit there doing low level work ?”
Actually, in my real world experience, that is very true, Penfold.
The real world public service does work like that – it’s called ‘being able to tell Joe Public, that we are keeping public servant numbers down” because contractors are not counted as public servants nor are they paid from the salary budget – they are an admin cost.

I encountered far more contractors doing ‘line roles’ than I did “IT architects, cyber security experts”. As for project managers? When I finished work, I found a number of PS departments were starting to set up their own in-house teams of PMs – which, when needed they supplemented with contractor PMs.

“Questions like “What exactly were all these $300k contracting enterprise architects doing?” shows a limited understanding of the way government, the economy and the nation operates”

The fact that the same person who wrote the first comment in this thread, unironically posts this only a day later tells you all you need to know.

And then lecturing others about not knowing how government or the economy operate, bahahahaha.

Penfold once again being shown up lowering the bar with his continued hypocrisy and bad faith debating.

Truly enjoyable watching the Penfold melt.

Wow JS so you discovered the PMO too. Wonder if those low level contractors were on short term projects. It’s not about keeping them off the books, it’s about only needing their services for a period of time without having to make huge redundancy payments when the project ends.

So you’ve answered your own question about how the use of contractors benefits the taxpayer. If you worked in IT and didn’t meet architects and the cyber guys, i guess the terms Sparx EA, SIA, penetration test, functional requirements, business processes, Authority to Operate and IRAP are foreign to you. Is Kanban a yakuza thing ? Is Prince2 a royal thing ?

Fully aware, Penfold, and I will keep doing it because it is at the heart of your blunder. Replacement is not growth, destroying your claim in your opening post.

Whatever the total growth in the APS, 11,000 by your own statements were replacements for non-APS staff, so do not form part of the growth in total employment. I made this clear at the beginning, yet still you struggle with it.

Or as Penfold said, “11,000 of them replaced contractors and consultants.”

As for what they do, who cares? It is irrelevant to the numbers, a straw man invented by you, never claimed by me despite your fervid fantasies. 11,000 non-APS staff left, 11,000 APS staff arrived, keeping nett numbers the same on that point. A further count of APS staff arrived, at a growth rate shown by many people here to be far below your Dutton talking-point claim; a claim you still expound long after he lost the election based on his absurd policies, innumeracy, flip-flops and culture wars. It suits you.

Penfold, the Liberal Party’s own Hiroo Onoda.

@Penfold
No, you didn’t read it right. I was suggesting chewy’s question “Why did we need 11,000 more of them and their contracting brethren?” is quite valid.

@Penfold
All you are doing, is demonstrating your inability to comprehend what you (supposedly) read. I did not say “didn’t meet architects and the cyber guys” … go back and read my post, and try to comprehend what the words “I encountered far more contractors doing ‘line roles’ than I did “IT architects, cyber security experts”” … unle4ss you are suggesting all of thgose 11,000 contractors were, in fact “architects and the cyber guys”?

I didn’t bother with the rest of your supercilious piffle.

You’re half right Axon. 11,000 arrived. But nowhere near 11,000 left. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Have you ever worked in the real world ?