Could the election get any duller? It's debatable

The problem is that today’s voter’s aren’t sophisticated. They’ll sooner cut off a leg to get a new pair of skates.

No one wants to pay for the future they want the money today. Both parties and lack of leadership reflect this.

Australia is not Argentina and Trump’s policies have been a disaster for the American economy and they haven’t even hit the coming wave of job losses yet, Capital.

I’m glad I could help.

Interesting comparison Capital Retro,

Even after their budget cuts, Argentina’s government spends and taxes about 6% higher as a proportion of GDP than Australia does.

So you think it’s a good idea to have significantly higher taxes and government spending?

Never thought I’d see the day CR was promoting big government.

@Capital Retro
Have you looked at the relative percentage of debt compared to GDP for Argentina (91.5%) and Australia (43.8%), CR? Given Argentina’s debt to GDP proportion was 155% in 2023, it needed drastic measures.

Australia’s debt-to-GDP ratio is lower than that of the UK and the US, and significantly lower than Japan (227%).

So, as usual, I wonder if there is a point to your post.

Peter Dutton literally does not believe in Medicare, he cut billions from health and was ranked by doctors as the worst health minister in 35 years. There is no “Mediscare” it’s just a fact based on Dutton’s actual record as health minister that’s the problem for Peter Dutton and his rusted on LNP boasters.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jan/12/peter-dutton-ranked-as-worst-health-minister-in-35-years-in-poll-of-doctors

It’s easy to regurgitate Labor’s lies about cutting the health budget. The budget papers tell a different story.

Who cares about what the Guardian says about his popularity, perhaps you’re spending too much time on hard-left propaganda. Even Fairfax have called out Labor’s lies on this.

They don’t though.

As for your having a go at the Guardian, how tediously predictable but I couldn’t have demonstrated any better how weak your arguments are. Unless of course you are claiming that the Guardian report that doctors voted Dutton the worst healthcare minister in 35 years (after his many cuts) is made up…but that would be idiotic.

Well as always Seano, an inability to do any research exposes the silliness of your statements.

“Spending on health in Australia (recurrent and capital expenditure combined) was $161.6 billion in 2014–15, $4.4 billion (2.8%) higher in real terms than in 2013–14.”

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure-australia-2014-15/summary

Well as always Penfold, an inability to do any research or look beyond your obvious prejudices exposes the silliness of your statements even more so than your attack on the Guardian for reporting…*checks notes*… facts:

“However, most of the cuts never happened because Malcolm Turnbull backtracked in 2017 after replacing Tony Abbott as prime minister. Mr Dutton was shuffled out of the health portfolio in late 2014.

“Dutton put his hand up for a budget that aimed to cut $50 billion,” Professor Duckett told AAP FactCheck.

“The reality that it didn’t come to pass is also important.” “

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/duttons-50b-hospital-cuts-werent-carried-out/

And the reality is important because they way they stopped most (not all) of the Dutton cuts to health care was shunting Dutton out of the health portfolio.

Dutton doesn’t believe in Medicare, he’s on the record attacking it repeatedly, he’s tried to slash it before and there will be no stopping him if he becomes PM. Mediscare is just stating the facts.

How embarrassing Penfold.

The Liberals have never supported Medicare Penfold. They are ideologically opposed to Medicare as a universal health care system. A health care system that safeguards the health needs of all Australians and is not based on a patient’s capacity to pay. There is no Liberal government since Medicare’s introduction over 40 years ago that I can remember who has not sought to undermine and destroy it.

Maybe Penfold you can explain to readers why Peter Dutton and his party gave substance to Labor’s 2016 scare campaign and voted against a Labor motion, just 3 months after the election, to keep Medicare in public hands? You could also explain why Dutton, as health minister in the Abbott government, in a process of stealth sought to run-down bulk billing and eventually its demise by backing a proposal to establish American-style health reforms? This included, but is not limited to, introducing co-payment fees for GP visits and public hospital emergency departments as well as levies on pathology tests, regardless of a persons income?

In a matter of weeks we have the prospect of a Dutton government. A government which will pave the way for the eventual demise and privatisation of Medicare, making cuts and running it down by trashing the very principles which underpin it as a universal health care insurance scheme and benefits all Australians.

The survey was not made up by The Guardian, it arose from a survey on a web site frequented by GPs, about 20,000 at the time they report. It is not a reliable measure but it is as described, Dutton was voted worst in their human memories.

Health expenditure as quoted is not related to the opinion of those doctors.

In general terms, health expenditure as a proportion of GDP declined during the term of the Liberal governments until Covid hit. It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so. Dutton is no different in that, words around it as meaningless as with his predecessors.

@Penfold
I can’t believe that you continually shoot your self in the foot. In the very link you provided:
“This (the 2.8% growth) was the third consecutive year that growth in health expenditure was below the 10-year average (4.6% between 2004–05 and 2014–15). Growth in health expenditure per person was also relatively low, at less than a half of the average annual growth over the decade (1.4% compared with 2.9%).”

So sure, health expenditure had grown in real terms, but the increase in expenditure was almost 40% below the 10-year average to 2014-15. That is hardly a record to crow about.

JS – did you read the words “2.8% growth” ? What that means is spending went up. This can be quite relevant if someone claims spending went down !🤣

Seano – maybe read the actual budget then tell us where health funding was cut.

Labor mouthpiece Duckett was comparing Labor’s $50 billion planned additional funding to the actual spending after Labor sadly didn’t win the election. But sorry, there’s a few moving parts to that statement, it’s probably too complex.

Jack – can’t say I remember that one. Did Labor really, in opposition, demand a vote into keeping a public health service, well, public ?

What a waste of the parliament’s time.

“@Penfold
I can’t believe that you continually shoot your self in the foot.”….an occupational hazard when cutting and pasting straight from coalition talking points and memes.

Axon – sadly you’re wrong. At least according to Australia’s parliament. But what would they know.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_Library/Budget/reviews/2024-25/Health

“Labor mouthpiece Duckett”… I stopped reading this drivel at this point, once again your weak arguments devolve into attacks on the source. It’s really your only move when yet again defeated in a debate.

The facts are Dutton’s cuts were planned, they had started and it took Turnbull shunting him out of health to stop them. Dutton has persisted in attacking Medicare since that time, all on the public record.

Dutton wants a user pays healthcare system, any claims there is scare campaign against him are laughable when any objective person looking at Dutton’s words and actions would be concerned about what happens to Medicare if Dutton becomes PM.

You lose again unfortunately but hopefully Dutton won’t become PM so on the bright side you’ll get to keep your Medicare.

Ahh Seano it’s unlikely you’ve ever heard of the Grattan Institute, it’s a left-leaning think tank. Duckett was their health chief for years.

Btw do you like shelling peas ?

I see you’re still desperately and pathetically attacking the source and the reason you’re doing that is because you can’t challenge the factuality of the arguments, go on I dare you…lol good luck with that.

Dutton had planned to cut $50bn from health, Turnbull stopped it…this is all on the public record.

Oh dear Penfold, I’m afraid it’s once again game over.

Seano it’s a shame you missed the first leader’s debate where Dutton tore Albo to shreds on the $50 billion lie.

But here’s a challenge for you – if you can produce budget numbers (links) detailing this supposed $50 billion cut, then I’ll admit it’s “game over”. How’s that for fair ?

Take your time, I’m looking forward to this evidence.

That comes after the daily basket weaving, yes?

Yeah except none of that is true, you wouldn’t be desperately trying to cover for Dutton, if it was, but sadly for the Dutton and his dopey rusted on cheerleaders, his attacks on Medicare is all on the public record. None of which you can dismiss by pretending.

You can’t pretend Dutton wouldn’t have carried through with his planned $50bn worth of cuts if Turnbull hadn’t stopped him, you can’t pretend that Dutton hasn’t constantly attacked Medicare.

Still game over I’m afraid champ

BTW the way Penfold, the evidence you’re demanding is in the article you haven’t read…same as it ever was.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/duttons-50b-hospital-cuts-werent-carried-out/

Penfold, why are you referring to absolute expenditure when I referenced percentage of GDP?

Penfold and those from the conservative side of politics are still maintaining the rage over Labor’s “Mediscare” campaign which revealed the Liberals’ plans to privatise Medicare at the 2016 election. Giving substance to Labor’s campaign the Liberals voted against a Labor motion, just 3 months after the election, by refusing to commit to the future of Medicare despite their pre-election promises to keep it in public hands. The Liberal party still intends to Americanise Australia’s health system and privatise Medicare and the greatest proponent of this proposal is the party’s current leader Peter Dutton who wants to be PM who did so much damage to our health system when he was its minister in the Abbott government.

Penfold, clearly out of his depth as usual and superglued to the Liberal party (or perhaps one of those scary and excitable young Liberals) is continuing his rage over Labor and their “Mediscare” campaign as he makes clear in his constant bluster and in this thread.

Thankfully the opinion polls are showing a sharp decline in Dutton’s approval ratings which paves the way for the equally confused Angus Taylor to become leader after the election and another decade of the Liberals in opposition!

Surprise, surprise Seano, no budget links. Hope it’s okay, i’m writing this slowly because i know you can’t read fast. Turnbull didn’t stop Dutton at all, the $50 billion only existed in Labor’s mathematically-challenged minds.

Thanks for the AAP link. I loved this sentence:

“Australian Institute of Health and Welfare data shows hospital spending has risen consistently over the past 12 years – including when Mr Dutton was the health minister.”

And in the next paragraph …. “Stephen Duckett ….”.

Now if you want to provide some actual budget evidence, here’s a big term, “portfolio budget statements”. It’s probably new so you might need to google it. The budget and actuals answers are all there. My favourite is statement 11 which highlights how out-of-control Labor’s spending is.

Perhaps have another look and see if you can find that pesky vaporous $50 billion. The white flag challenge still stands.

Have it either way Axon. Health spending as a % of GDP was 8.7% under RGR (2013) and 9.3% in 2019, just before covid.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure

So your statement “health expenditure as a proportion of GDP declined during the term of the Liberal governments until Covid hit. It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.” is more than contestable, it’s simply wrong.

“Surprise, surprise Seano, no budget links.”
Wrong:
http://aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/bud_1415/Treasury/answers/BET41_Wong.pdf

” Hope it’s okay, i’m writing this slowly because”…presumably because you’d have to…I of course stopped reading at your first lie Penfold as a practice in common sense and avoiding having my time wasted.

Dutton had every intent on stripping $50bn from the budget, Turnbull stopped it. There is no Mediscare…there is only the promise of Dutton achieving his goal of decimating public healthcare if he becomes Prime Minister with no adults in the room.

Game still over.

Alas Seano i tried to point you to the budget papers but it was clearly a bridge too far. Quoting the hapless Wong – hardly a numbers person – isn’t proof of much. It’s hard to work out what point you were trying to make.
Keeping trying youngster.

A direct link to the data from the budget papers, Dutton planned $50bn in cuts, Turnbull rolled him to stop it. All facts all on the public record.
http://aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/bud_1415/Treasury/answers/BET41_Wong.pdf

You lose and once again don’t have the grace to accept you were wrong, there is no Mediscare there is just pointing to Dutton’s record in public office attacking Medicare.

Game over.

How many “game overs” is that now Seano, about ten ? Regardless, posting the same link twice doesn’t help your cause much. Where does it identify these mysterious $50 billion in “cuts” ?

Good to see you catching up Penfold. Anyone can see the top line of the relevant chart showing rises from 2012 then decline or flat-lining from 2015 to 2019. Click through to the expenditure by source to see that Federal expenditure did nothing but decline from 2012-13 to 2018-19 before rising sharply in the 2020 to 2022 financial years.

It is cute but wrong of you to conflate that discussion with my factual statement: “It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.”

Do not just read the current speeches, look at the voting records since 1974 when a double dissolution election was needed to get the first version of universal healthcare voted through against trenchant opposition from the Libs, who undermined it from 1976 then removed it in 1981 before it was reintroduced by Hawke in 1984. So it has continued. Remember Dutton’s proposal for a $7 co-payment on what was previously bulk-billed? Hockey wanted to push ahead but Abbott killed it as too unpopular. It is all on the record.

I hate to agree with Penfold but there’s not much data that federal health spending dropped (or was cut) in the period from 2013 to 2019, either in real terms or as a percentage of GDP.

The federal budget health expenditure grew by about $20 billion in the period and was flat as a proportion of GDP through the period, sitting just above 4% the entire period give or take a few tenths of a %.

The question is really around what the demand for health services was doing during the period and it was clearly growing at well in excess of the increased federal government expenditure, with the Feds pushing more responsibility onto the states to pick up the difference.

The metrics around that increased demand are so numerous they can’t be seriously questioned. Whether people support the past and future level of expenditure or not, is up to them.

Axon – thanks for confirming once again that the Coalition increased the health budget, both in real terms and as a % of GDP. It doesn’t make your case particularly strong but at least you’re parroting Labor’s falsehoods.

Turnbull rolled Dutton, if he hadn’t those cuts would have gone ahead.

Penfold, I’ll keep reminding you it’s game over every time you refuse to accept evidence that shoots down your opinions.

Game Over.

You do that Seano. But perhaps first you could provide some budgetary evidence. It appears to be a most difficult exercise for you, though it looks like your trying to use a 10 year Labor timeline. Unfortunately the forward estimates are only four years.

Maybe if you stretch it out to a century you could claim a trillion dollars in cuts 🤣

“But perhaps first you could provide some budgetary evidence.”…as ever I stopped reading at the point you get ridiculous and start wasting my time, Penfold…It’s in the link you haven’t read from the article you haven’t read, same as it ever was.

Oh I did read the link, was hoping you might enlighten me on the relevant part of it.

PS love the Talking Heads reference.

It’s in the link as you would know if you’d actually read to the bottom. Your attempts to make this about something it’s not will fail here as they have for Dutton with the electorate.

Dutton’s planned cuts were budgeted, it’s on the public record and in the link. Luckily Turnbull was the adult in the room, but with no adults left if Dutton becomes PM his $50bn in cuts are back the agenda and the electorate knows this which is why you’re upset.

I know it’s hard for you to deal in objective reality, but I won’t stop making sense.

No “game over” ? The only person you’re making sense to is yourself, it shouldn’t be that hard to point to where this supposed evidence exists. Oh well.

Except I did none of that Penfold.

chewy14 wrote: “the demand for health services was … clearly growing at well in excess of the increased federal government expenditure, with the Feds pushing more responsibility onto the states to pick up the difference.”

which is precisely as I raised in the opening paragraph of my previous post. Health services demand was increasing while federal government expenditure proportionally declined. Obviously at no time did I ever mention budget dollar expenditure, a fact with which Penfold could not keep up earlier. Penfold dearly wants someone to validate his own fantasies.

However, my salient point remains the well-known opposition of the Liberals to universal health care. At no time has Penfold even tried to rebut that it is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.

Senate estimates, the bottom of the page, pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away champ.

Game over.

Axon – you’re falling for Labor’s sound bites hook, line and sinker. The Coalition have never had “a well-known opposition …. to universal health care.” They opposed Whitlam’s huge spending agenda because it pushed government spending from 18% to a whopping 24% of GDP. A 33% increase. No wonder Whitlam was sacked.

Tinkering at the margins like the $7 co-payment was a sensible reform. Look at the explosion in demand for GP servicing, some of it overservicing, these days. Doctors are saying thank you very much. Bulk billing under the Coalition was 88%. Under Albo it dropped to 77%. Even Butler today conceded that many doctor’s visits will still attract a gap payment. The Coalition track record on health is good, even outdoing Labor on mental health spending in this campaign. Way too much extra spending for mine from both sides.

So feel free to retain your fantasies about the Coalition and health, the reality is very different.

Oh so there it is Seano, the one with ten years of Labor projections. Well that’s quite humorous. The forward estimates are four years, capturing just over one election cycle. Anything forecasts beyond that are completely meaningless.

So the difference over four years is $3 billion. Half that supposed $50 billion is in years 9 and 10. Not worth the paper it’s written on. So we can agree on one thing, it is game over.

Wrong, Penfold. I was there at the time and thus for every campaign and action since. My claim is incontrovertible. You betray that yourself in your response.

24% you say? Quelle horreur! Meanwhile, rather than trying to rewrite history you may be interested in the period 2019-2025 here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/260547/australias-ratio-of-government-expenditure-to-gross-domestic-product/
According to the IMF government expenditure took off around 1960 and rose from 27% to 33% 1973-1976, Labor being in office from December 1972 to December 1975.

I do not and have never had any association with any political party whereas you are merely a Liberal shill.

Budgeted over 10 years, and on the public record. Was only stopped by Turnbull rolling Dutton as health minister.

Thanks for finally accepting that you were wrong. And by definition accepting that there is no “Mediscare” there is only pointing to Dutton’s record of planning $50bn in Medicare cuts and his constant attacks on Medicare since he was booted from the Health portfolio having been voted the worst health minister in 35 years.

Game. Over.

Axon – those IMF numbers include state governments. Whitlam inherited 18.5% spending to GDP and turned that into 24.3% when he was turfed out in November 1975.

Are you sure you were there ? Because your “incontrovertible facts” are wrong.

Seano maybe you should extend that to 50 years and make it $500 billion, lol.

Btw are you aware that Dutton increased health expenditure ? If he was trying to destroy Medicare he did a pretty bad job. 🤣

“Seano maybe you should extend that to 50 years and make it $500 billion, lol.”

Given Dutton’s $50bn in cuts over 10 years to Medicare were budgeted and on are documented on the public record, I don’t have to make anything up. I stopped reading at your first disingenuous attempt to redirect the argument.

Another loser attempt at redirection, sorry Penfold, we can keep doing this but at this point you’re hitting the buttons on the arcade machine out of coins and out of luck while the screen flashes “Game Over”.

Of course it includes State governments. You said “government expenditure” which is examined as a whole because there is cost shifting between State and Federal, as already discussed. Now you have realised your blunder so want to focus on a component which stood then as it does today and which has no relevance to my claim anyway.

Your only attempt to rebut the public statements, speeches and parliamentary votes recorded in Hansard, government actions or attempted actions, your own words, is to say “‘Tis not and look over there!”

You know its true, it’s in your philosophy, but with an election on a good shill must deny.

Who says spending at 18.5% was optimal? This is the whole stupidity of debates around percentages. They are utterly meaningless dribble.

Axon you’re spinning like a top there. The discussion is about federal government spending. And that spending includes forward estimates of four years. Ten year forecasts are meaningless, the government can change three times. Look at any budget papers, especially statement 11.

I asked Seano to provide budget proof of his claims, which as usual he cannot. Both of you are sounding desperate to show Dutton made cuts to health, which is simply false.

So JS9 whether bulk billing rates are 88% or 77% is meaningless ?

Getting 51% of votes in a

an election is meaningless ?

Goodness we read some bizarre comments here sometimes.

You accepted the proof when you tried to defend them Penfold.

$50bn in cuts to Medicare over 10 years budgeted and documented on the public record. Only Turnbull stopped it by sacking the worst Health Minister in 35 years.

Unless you can prove senate estimates documents are wrong your comment that the
Dutton Medicare cuts are false is false is a flat out lie Penfold.

And of course this lie is important to you because Dutton has been found out and he’s not romping home to victory and may lose despite what many of you predicted.

“Game Over” flashes again and again.

Yes, you’ve declared game over about a dozen times now, yet the game continues ! 😄

Any sign of a budget document yet ?

Not only is Penfold entirely wrong, he has also lost the plot.

Penfold, the “topic” is dullness of the election. It says that at the top. Here I am asserting and you are wholly failing to rebut that it is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.

At no stage whatsoever did I refer to any ten year forecasts, or even four years or just one year. Plot definitely lost. Why are you dragging in Seano? Where did I make any reference to Dutton other than his unpopularity with Doctors some time around 2015 and expectation of his standard Liberal opposition to universal government health care? Plot completely lost. No surprise. I referred to public and official records.

Kindly excuse my possible rotation as I try to see in which direction you are running now.

Well if the topic is dullness why are you discussing spending as a % of GDP Axon ?

Hey Seano, got some bad news for you. That Wong link refers to page 7 of the 2014-15 Budget Overview and references a 10 year hospital funding table. Sorry to tell you, I’ve just looked at the document – that table doesn’t exist ! Back to the drawing board I’m afraid.

I’ll take that as your white flag Penfold.

Thank you though for drawing attention back to my accurate statements about falling federal spending as a percentage of GDP in the middle of the last decade. It was at that point I made the claim you prove unable to controvert: the Liberal Party, conservatives in general, have always been against universal government-funded healthcare and continue to be so.

It’s your philosophy and your record. You want to own the fact but worry about the election so trying to deceive or distract people is still important for you.

None of that is true Penfold though it is tedious.

“The bottom line
The Government has claimed savings of $80 billion to schools and hospitals over 10 years. Based on charts in the budget and evidence to the Senate from the health department, it appears that over 10 years the Commonwealth would be contributing $50 billion less to hospitals than if it kept Labor’s funding arrangements in place.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/has-hospital-funding-been-cut-by-50-billion-fact-check/5486988

Dutton is a threat to public health. Game Over.

What is it with you lefties and your white flags and game overs ? It’s as if you think you can play and umpire at the same time, lol.

Constantly parroting mediscare without any evidence does get a bit silly. Bulk billing rates of 88% under the Coalition and 77% now are further evidence. It’s as if you reckon if you repeat something enough it must be true. 🦜 🐦

Ignoring evidence doesn’t make it go away, it’s a white flag not matter how many times you refused to accept that it’s game over.

Well come on Seano, page 7, 2014-15 Budget Overview, I’m looking at it now. You’re quite right, your link isn’t true. It doesn’t exist. A vapour link !

“Based on charts in the budget and evidence to the Senate from the health department, it appears that over 10 years the Commonwealth would be contributing $50 billion less to hospitals than if it kept Labor’s funding arrangements in place.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/has-hospital-funding-been-cut-by-50-billion-fact-check/5486988

Most people can infer the situation from your non-replies and diversions Penfold. Apart from which, it’s no game. Health matters and societies up the wealth scale, such as ours, use it to improve productivity as well as the well-being of its citizens. The return on the investment is both social and economic. I doubt you want to understand that.

Try reading Hansard for evidence of the Liberal approach you cannot deny. When Howard accepted in 1996 that he could no longer abandon Medicare entirely as he had previously wished, he pitched it as welfare rather than a significant component of a well-functioning society. Conservative attitudes change slowly, by definition, and the current Liberal Party with Dutton are very conservative, too far gone for my vote. I am studying the available independents.

Geez Axon i’ve replied with a lot of “non-replies” in this thread. But it sounds like you’re saying better medical care has social and economic benefits. Well i’ll be damned.

Seano – another ABC link. Did you notice in the article even they dispute the $50 billion claim ? Guess not. Here’s a hint – they describe it as “conjecture”. Add that to your definitions lookup list.

Seano, sorry buddy i hate to kick a bloke while he’s down, but the ABC link you provided also offered this treasure:

“10 year budget projections: Are they fair?”

“Ms Gillard and then treasurer Wayne Swan laid out 10 year spending projections “to create some high ground for themselves so that they had some social policy legacy issues to boast about and that they could complain about if the Coalition cut the very long out-years”.”

Pretty dodgy hey.

“Seano – another ABC link.”…I stopped reading at this point (which is fair because you clearly haven’t read the entire article), as I’ve pointed out to you before as soon you resort to a idiotic attack on the source I know I’ve won.

Dutton’s cuts were planned, it’s on the public record. Dutton can’t be trusted with Medicare.

Fumbling out some more diversionary text is not a reply to the facts, Penfold, but it is all you can do, having no relevant answers. You lost this one ages ago and people know it. I expect you will splutter some more. A shill’s gotta shill.

What’s diversionary Axon ? I was responding to Seano’s hilarious links which discredit every word he writes. I’m a bit worried for the poor bloke who seems to struggle understanding basic words like “transparency”, “conjecture” and “baseload”.

You guys seem to think these forums are about winners and losers. For me they’re a chance to educate young minds about simple realities of economics, politics and the world around us. But between you and me i don’t hold out much hope for Seano. He can’t even read a link he includes before hitting the “submit” button.

You can’t change what’s in the public record so you try to pretend it doesn’t exist. What does that say about your arguments Penfold.

Dutton’s $50bn in cuts were planned over 10 years, it wasn’t for Turnbull they would have gone ahead. There is no Turnbull this time and Medicare is not safe under Dutton.

Yes of course Seano. And climate change is going to rise the oceans and drown us all, if the three-digit temperatures don’t get us first. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Hey did you get a chance to to look over that public record vapour link again ?

Once again when Penfold realises his argument is a loser he resorts to misdirection and strawmen. Cringeworthy but nothing to do with the fact that Dutton can’t be trusted with Medicare.