Could the election get any duller? It's debatable

Peter Dutton literally does not believe in Medicare, he cut billions from health and was ranked by doctors as the worst health minister in 35 years. There is no “Mediscare” it’s just a fact based on Dutton’s actual record as health minister that’s the problem for Peter Dutton and his rusted on LNP boasters.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jan/12/peter-dutton-ranked-as-worst-health-minister-in-35-years-in-poll-of-doctors

It’s easy to regurgitate Labor’s lies about cutting the health budget. The budget papers tell a different story.

Who cares about what the Guardian says about his popularity, perhaps you’re spending too much time on hard-left propaganda. Even Fairfax have called out Labor’s lies on this.

They don’t though.

As for your having a go at the Guardian, how tediously predictable but I couldn’t have demonstrated any better how weak your arguments are. Unless of course you are claiming that the Guardian report that doctors voted Dutton the worst healthcare minister in 35 years (after his many cuts) is made up…but that would be idiotic.

Well as always Seano, an inability to do any research exposes the silliness of your statements.

“Spending on health in Australia (recurrent and capital expenditure combined) was $161.6 billion in 2014–15, $4.4 billion (2.8%) higher in real terms than in 2013–14.”

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure-australia-2014-15/summary

Well as always Penfold, an inability to do any research or look beyond your obvious prejudices exposes the silliness of your statements even more so than your attack on the Guardian for reporting…*checks notes*… facts:

“However, most of the cuts never happened because Malcolm Turnbull backtracked in 2017 after replacing Tony Abbott as prime minister. Mr Dutton was shuffled out of the health portfolio in late 2014.

“Dutton put his hand up for a budget that aimed to cut $50 billion,” Professor Duckett told AAP FactCheck.

“The reality that it didn’t come to pass is also important.” “

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/duttons-50b-hospital-cuts-werent-carried-out/

And the reality is important because they way they stopped most (not all) of the Dutton cuts to health care was shunting Dutton out of the health portfolio.

Dutton doesn’t believe in Medicare, he’s on the record attacking it repeatedly, he’s tried to slash it before and there will be no stopping him if he becomes PM. Mediscare is just stating the facts.

How embarrassing Penfold.

The Liberals have never supported Medicare Penfold. They are ideologically opposed to Medicare as a universal health care system. A health care system that safeguards the health needs of all Australians and is not based on a patient’s capacity to pay. There is no Liberal government since Medicare’s introduction over 40 years ago that I can remember who has not sought to undermine and destroy it.

Maybe Penfold you can explain to readers why Peter Dutton and his party gave substance to Labor’s 2016 scare campaign and voted against a Labor motion, just 3 months after the election, to keep Medicare in public hands? You could also explain why Dutton, as health minister in the Abbott government, in a process of stealth sought to run-down bulk billing and eventually its demise by backing a proposal to establish American-style health reforms? This included, but is not limited to, introducing co-payment fees for GP visits and public hospital emergency departments as well as levies on pathology tests, regardless of a persons income?

In a matter of weeks we have the prospect of a Dutton government. A government which will pave the way for the eventual demise and privatisation of Medicare, making cuts and running it down by trashing the very principles which underpin it as a universal health care insurance scheme and benefits all Australians.

The survey was not made up by The Guardian, it arose from a survey on a web site frequented by GPs, about 20,000 at the time they report. It is not a reliable measure but it is as described, Dutton was voted worst in their human memories.

Health expenditure as quoted is not related to the opinion of those doctors.

In general terms, health expenditure as a proportion of GDP declined during the term of the Liberal governments until Covid hit. It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so. Dutton is no different in that, words around it as meaningless as with his predecessors.

@Penfold
I can’t believe that you continually shoot your self in the foot. In the very link you provided:
“This (the 2.8% growth) was the third consecutive year that growth in health expenditure was below the 10-year average (4.6% between 2004–05 and 2014–15). Growth in health expenditure per person was also relatively low, at less than a half of the average annual growth over the decade (1.4% compared with 2.9%).”

So sure, health expenditure had grown in real terms, but the increase in expenditure was almost 40% below the 10-year average to 2014-15. That is hardly a record to crow about.

JS – did you read the words “2.8% growth” ? What that means is spending went up. This can be quite relevant if someone claims spending went down !🤣

Seano – maybe read the actual budget then tell us where health funding was cut.

Labor mouthpiece Duckett was comparing Labor’s $50 billion planned additional funding to the actual spending after Labor sadly didn’t win the election. But sorry, there’s a few moving parts to that statement, it’s probably too complex.

Jack – can’t say I remember that one. Did Labor really, in opposition, demand a vote into keeping a public health service, well, public ?

What a waste of the parliament’s time.

“@Penfold
I can’t believe that you continually shoot your self in the foot.”….an occupational hazard when cutting and pasting straight from coalition talking points and memes.

Axon – sadly you’re wrong. At least according to Australia’s parliament. But what would they know.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_Library/Budget/reviews/2024-25/Health

“Labor mouthpiece Duckett”… I stopped reading this drivel at this point, once again your weak arguments devolve into attacks on the source. It’s really your only move when yet again defeated in a debate.

The facts are Dutton’s cuts were planned, they had started and it took Turnbull shunting him out of health to stop them. Dutton has persisted in attacking Medicare since that time, all on the public record.

Dutton wants a user pays healthcare system, any claims there is scare campaign against him are laughable when any objective person looking at Dutton’s words and actions would be concerned about what happens to Medicare if Dutton becomes PM.

You lose again unfortunately but hopefully Dutton won’t become PM so on the bright side you’ll get to keep your Medicare.

Ahh Seano it’s unlikely you’ve ever heard of the Grattan Institute, it’s a left-leaning think tank. Duckett was their health chief for years.

Btw do you like shelling peas ?

I see you’re still desperately and pathetically attacking the source and the reason you’re doing that is because you can’t challenge the factuality of the arguments, go on I dare you…lol good luck with that.

Dutton had planned to cut $50bn from health, Turnbull stopped it…this is all on the public record.

Oh dear Penfold, I’m afraid it’s once again game over.

Seano it’s a shame you missed the first leader’s debate where Dutton tore Albo to shreds on the $50 billion lie.

But here’s a challenge for you – if you can produce budget numbers (links) detailing this supposed $50 billion cut, then I’ll admit it’s “game over”. How’s that for fair ?

Take your time, I’m looking forward to this evidence.

That comes after the daily basket weaving, yes?

Yeah except none of that is true, you wouldn’t be desperately trying to cover for Dutton, if it was, but sadly for the Dutton and his dopey rusted on cheerleaders, his attacks on Medicare is all on the public record. None of which you can dismiss by pretending.

You can’t pretend Dutton wouldn’t have carried through with his planned $50bn worth of cuts if Turnbull hadn’t stopped him, you can’t pretend that Dutton hasn’t constantly attacked Medicare.

Still game over I’m afraid champ

BTW the way Penfold, the evidence you’re demanding is in the article you haven’t read…same as it ever was.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/duttons-50b-hospital-cuts-werent-carried-out/

Penfold, why are you referring to absolute expenditure when I referenced percentage of GDP?

Penfold and those from the conservative side of politics are still maintaining the rage over Labor’s “Mediscare” campaign which revealed the Liberals’ plans to privatise Medicare at the 2016 election. Giving substance to Labor’s campaign the Liberals voted against a Labor motion, just 3 months after the election, by refusing to commit to the future of Medicare despite their pre-election promises to keep it in public hands. The Liberal party still intends to Americanise Australia’s health system and privatise Medicare and the greatest proponent of this proposal is the party’s current leader Peter Dutton who wants to be PM who did so much damage to our health system when he was its minister in the Abbott government.

Penfold, clearly out of his depth as usual and superglued to the Liberal party (or perhaps one of those scary and excitable young Liberals) is continuing his rage over Labor and their “Mediscare” campaign as he makes clear in his constant bluster and in this thread.

Thankfully the opinion polls are showing a sharp decline in Dutton’s approval ratings which paves the way for the equally confused Angus Taylor to become leader after the election and another decade of the Liberals in opposition!

Surprise, surprise Seano, no budget links. Hope it’s okay, i’m writing this slowly because i know you can’t read fast. Turnbull didn’t stop Dutton at all, the $50 billion only existed in Labor’s mathematically-challenged minds.

Thanks for the AAP link. I loved this sentence:

“Australian Institute of Health and Welfare data shows hospital spending has risen consistently over the past 12 years – including when Mr Dutton was the health minister.”

And in the next paragraph …. “Stephen Duckett ….”.

Now if you want to provide some actual budget evidence, here’s a big term, “portfolio budget statements”. It’s probably new so you might need to google it. The budget and actuals answers are all there. My favourite is statement 11 which highlights how out-of-control Labor’s spending is.

Perhaps have another look and see if you can find that pesky vaporous $50 billion. The white flag challenge still stands.

Have it either way Axon. Health spending as a % of GDP was 8.7% under RGR (2013) and 9.3% in 2019, just before covid.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure

So your statement “health expenditure as a proportion of GDP declined during the term of the Liberal governments until Covid hit. It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.” is more than contestable, it’s simply wrong.

“Surprise, surprise Seano, no budget links.”
Wrong:
http://aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/bud_1415/Treasury/answers/BET41_Wong.pdf

” Hope it’s okay, i’m writing this slowly because”…presumably because you’d have to…I of course stopped reading at your first lie Penfold as a practice in common sense and avoiding having my time wasted.

Dutton had every intent on stripping $50bn from the budget, Turnbull stopped it. There is no Mediscare…there is only the promise of Dutton achieving his goal of decimating public healthcare if he becomes Prime Minister with no adults in the room.

Game still over.

Alas Seano i tried to point you to the budget papers but it was clearly a bridge too far. Quoting the hapless Wong – hardly a numbers person – isn’t proof of much. It’s hard to work out what point you were trying to make.
Keeping trying youngster.

A direct link to the data from the budget papers, Dutton planned $50bn in cuts, Turnbull rolled him to stop it. All facts all on the public record.
http://aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/bud_1415/Treasury/answers/BET41_Wong.pdf

You lose and once again don’t have the grace to accept you were wrong, there is no Mediscare there is just pointing to Dutton’s record in public office attacking Medicare.

Game over.

How many “game overs” is that now Seano, about ten ? Regardless, posting the same link twice doesn’t help your cause much. Where does it identify these mysterious $50 billion in “cuts” ?

Good to see you catching up Penfold. Anyone can see the top line of the relevant chart showing rises from 2012 then decline or flat-lining from 2015 to 2019. Click through to the expenditure by source to see that Federal expenditure did nothing but decline from 2012-13 to 2018-19 before rising sharply in the 2020 to 2022 financial years.

It is cute but wrong of you to conflate that discussion with my factual statement: “It is hardly contestable that the Libs, conservatives, generally oppose government-funded universal health schemes and have always done so.”

Do not just read the current speeches, look at the voting records since 1974 when a double dissolution election was needed to get the first version of universal healthcare voted through against trenchant opposition from the Libs, who undermined it from 1976 then removed it in 1981 before it was reintroduced by Hawke in 1984. So it has continued. Remember Dutton’s proposal for a $7 co-payment on what was previously bulk-billed? Hockey wanted to push ahead but Abbott killed it as too unpopular. It is all on the record.

I hate to agree with Penfold but there’s not much data that federal health spending dropped (or was cut) in the period from 2013 to 2019, either in real terms or as a percentage of GDP.

The federal budget health expenditure grew by about $20 billion in the period and was flat as a proportion of GDP through the period, sitting just above 4% the entire period give or take a few tenths of a %.

The question is really around what the demand for health services was doing during the period and it was clearly growing at well in excess of the increased federal government expenditure, with the Feds pushing more responsibility onto the states to pick up the difference.

The metrics around that increased demand are so numerous they can’t be seriously questioned. Whether people support the past and future level of expenditure or not, is up to them.

Axon – thanks for confirming once again that the Coalition increased the health budget, both in real terms and as a % of GDP. It doesn’t make your case particularly strong but at least you’re parroting Labor’s falsehoods.

Turnbull rolled Dutton, if he hadn’t those cuts would have gone ahead.

Penfold, I’ll keep reminding you it’s game over every time you refuse to accept evidence that shoots down your opinions.

Game Over.

You do that Seano. But perhaps first you could provide some budgetary evidence. It appears to be a most difficult exercise for you, though it looks like your trying to use a 10 year Labor timeline. Unfortunately the forward estimates are only four years.

Maybe if you stretch it out to a century you could claim a trillion dollars in cuts 🤣

“But perhaps first you could provide some budgetary evidence.”…as ever I stopped reading at the point you get ridiculous and start wasting my time, Penfold…It’s in the link you haven’t read from the article you haven’t read, same as it ever was.